The bible is not

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: BubbaJoe

I guess I'm agnostic and I grab the popcorn when i see creationists and atheists fight it out constantly

I am in the USA and was raised Christian, came to my senses in early adulthood, I believe in something greater than I, not sure what it is. There are a lot of beliefs that follow that line.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

So you and your ilk are able to quote a source, that those of us non believers are not able to read. You cannot have it both ways. The bible is a work of fiction over 2000 years old, find me SCIENTIFIC evidence that this is a falsehood. You and your will rot in the fires of hell that you believe in

I didn't say I had a source that you can't read. I said if you don't believe in God and/or don't want to know Christ, then leave the Bible alone...that is unless you're insecure with your standing in eternity and feel like grinding your axe.

If anyone rots in hell, it will be by their own continuous desire to be distant from Christ, and no, I will not be joining you down there, but thanks for the invitation.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: BubbaJoe

So you and your ilk are able to quote a source, that those of us non believers are not able to read. You cannot have it both ways. The bible is a work of fiction over 2000 years old, find me SCIENTIFIC evidence that this is a falsehood. You and your will rot in the fires of hell that you believe in

I didn't say I had a source that you can't read. I said if you don't believe in God and/or don't want to know Christ, then leave the Bible alone...that is unless you're insecure with your standing in eternity and feel like grinding your axe.

If anyone rots in hell, it will be by their own continuous desire to be distant from Christ, and no, I will not be joining you down there, but thanks for the invitation.

You said if I don't believe then to leave it alone. But y'all want to cram all of this biblical crap down our throats. Many of us have read your book, even followed it for many years, and now find it be BS. Sorry thing is, most atheist and agnostics know your book better than you do. I will be as distant from Christ as I will from Oden, because no one has proof either of them existed. And as far as joining me, there is no evidence that you won't.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: BubbaJoe

So you and your ilk are able to quote a source, that those of us non believers are not able to read. You cannot have it both ways. The bible is a work of fiction over 2000 years old, find me SCIENTIFIC evidence that this is a falsehood. You and your will rot in the fires of hell that you believe in

I didn't say I had a source that you can't read. I said if you don't believe in God and/or don't want to know Christ, then leave the Bible alone...that is unless you're insecure with your standing in eternity and feel like grinding your axe.

If anyone rots in hell, it will be by their own continuous desire to be distant from Christ, and no, I will not be joining you down there, but thanks for the invitation.

You said if I don't believe then to leave it alone. But y'all want to cram all of this biblical crap down our throats. Many of us have read your book, even followed it for many years, and now find it be BS. Sorry thing is, most atheist and agnostics know your book better than you do. I will be as distant from Christ as I will from Oden, because no one has proof either of them existed. And as far as joining me, there is no evidence that you won't.

Oh boy. I'm sensing some unresolved issues here, maybe some PTSD? Just cuz your local church force fed you the Bible doesn't mean that I want to, and I don't appreciate being lumped together with them. You don't know what my level of Biblical education is, so don't pretend that you do. Chances are, I understand the Bible better than you (maybe not, but probably). So when you tell someone like me that the Bible is crap, what do you expect? I don't have to prove anything to you, and if I could, I wouldn't want to burden you with more knowledge than you can handle.

So you were force fed Bible and now you feel the need to force feed us your opinion...how ironic is that?

The bible is not...

...the messiah, it's just a very naughty boy...

Å99

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I'm sensing some unresolved issues here, maybe some PTSD?

Is that supposed to be an insult? Why don't you just say cancer or diabetes instead? How is he force feeding anyone his opinion? By your own words, by making this thread, you are doing the same! Anyone can skip over his post, just like we could skip over your OP

Anyways, so if the bible is only for Christians, then why to Christians tell nonbelievers to read it? What if you are keeping someone from turning to Christ because they choose not to read the bible based on your words?

a reply to: calstorm

The Bible is for those who wish to know the truth, christians or not. If your intent is to use the Bible for your own agenda its not for you. Its for those who want the Word of God and the Mind of Christ. Its that simple.

BTW I'm not the OP and this isn't my thread.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Sorry, I messed up thinking you were the OP. That was a error. I got up from my desk before reading page 2 and when I came back, I mistook you for the OP having not gone back to read the first page again.

a reply to: calstorm

You're right though, what I said was inappropriate. Thank you for calling me out.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

I'm sorry for the rude comments I made to you. I took things too far.

For what its worth, as a child my family shoved the Bible down my throat too, and for that reason I chose to turn my back on it for a long time, but I eventually realized that I needed the Mind of Christ in my life. It was just presented to me in the wrong way at the wrong time.

I've learned that if you have trouble accepting something today, don't right it off. Just try going back to it later after you've done some more growing. You never know if you might see something you missed before. That goes for anything (not just Bible).

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Number 1
It is written to Christians, it's not written to non believers.
If you don't believe, that's fine, please don't.

Corinthians were not christians neither were Romans, Thessalonians, Ephesians they were pagan, the people to whom the epistles/ gospels, were send.

Number 2 It's a spiritual book, it's not pro war, pro politics, pro slavery, anti gay or whatever you want it to be. You can't quote mine it, well you can but you miss the teaching You can't apply real world understanding to its teachings because it's spiritual, speaking to Christians

Let's not talk about OT and spirituality, any spirituality,ethics and morality in the New T. has derived by Greek n other pagan Philosophy of that time.
Messianic Jews and rebels after the destruction of Jerusalem were causing much trouble to Romans who invented Christianity from Judaism to control violent revolutionists and promote pacifistic (Roman friendly) christians with benefits from the Empire.
And control the whole occupied region through a mandatory religion.
Christianity took the place of the Roman imperial cult a mix of mythologies with specific meaning, made from Jewish traditions, Greek ethics and philosophy teachings, Egyptian Mysticism, and Pagan rituals.

I can't understand how secularists read the bible in a non spiritual context, then complain that it is telling them all crazy stuff. It's spiritual and it's not addressing you

What parts exactly are ''spiritual'' and what parts aren't?
IF spiritual to you means something entirely fictional that never really happen, written in an attempt trying to spread a message, and propagate a dogma.
then I have to agree., but that is hardly what I call true spirituality .

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
Corinthians were not christians neither were Romans, Thessalonians, Ephesians they were pagan, the people to whom the epistles/ gospels, were send.

You are only half-right, and that's the wrong half.
Of course the majority populations of Corinth, Rome etc. were not Christians, but the letters were not written to the majority populations. They were written to the minority Christian group within those cities. We know that because each letter says so in the opening words ("Paul to the church which is in Corinth" etc.), and because it's obvious enough from the content.

originally posted by: calstorm
Is that supposed to be an insult? Why don't you just say cancer or diabetes instead? How is he force feeding anyone his opinion? By your own words, by making this thread, you are doing the same! Anyone can skip over his post, just like we could skip over your OP

Anyways, so if the bible is only for Christians, then why to Christians tell nonbelievers to read it? What if you are keeping someone from turning to Christ because they choose not to read the bible based on your words?

I am the OP
Sorry for the confusion, even the confusion in my OP.

I only recently became a Christian , many years of studying the bible and Christians.

You know what, the bible is only for Christians, really truly. Strangely most Christians dont even get it so I am not surprised no secularists do
You are welcome to read it, its a book, you dont have to, if Christians are telling you, you must, then I am sorry. Free will and all. You dont have to.

I dont get your hyperbole "What if you are keeping someone from turning to Christ because they choose not to read the bible based on your words?"
Are you saying my words will stop someone reading a book if they choose, woe to them. I am telling people it has to be read as a spiritual text.
Yes, if you dont believe in spirituality, thats cool,

The application of the laws in the NT is to Christians, anyone can read it, anyone can make strange and ill-informed understandings to its words, I am pointing out they are wrong.

a reply to: Raggedyman

It is written to Christians, it's not written to non believers.

I thought it was written to everyone so they could recieve the good news of salvation.

It's a spiritual book, it's not pro war, pro politics, pro slavery, anti gay or whatever you want it to be.

So basically ignore what it says. Or at least, the parts that are pro-murder, pro-slavery, et cetera.

You can't apply real world understanding to its teachings

Because it doesn’t have real world application.

I can't understand how secularists read the bible in a non spiritual context

It's spiritual and it's not addressing you

So all these people that religious missionaries convert are doing what? Blessing them with spiritual discernment before they read any scripture? If not then surely they are reading it in a “non spiritual context”, no? At least prior to believing. Are you sure you don’t understand. Seems straight forward to me.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Number 2
It's a spiritual book, it's not pro war, pro politics, pro slavery, anti gay or whatever you want it to be.
You can't quote mine it, well you can but you miss the teaching
You can't apply real world understanding to its teachings because it's spiritual, speaking to Christians

It certainly was those things in the Old Testament.

I would happily discuss the OT and its implications, you wont want to hear it and get all jittery with me.

The NT applies to Christians, guess who the OT applies to

originally posted by: BubbaJoe


2nd, who or what gives you that idea that you can tell other people what to read?

God bless you, please read it, I encourage you.
I have no intention of stopping you, never even suggested any of the kind.
I would start at the Gospels, they teach who and what Christ is.

Once the Gospels I would encourage you to read Ephesians, Pauls great teaching then to Corinthians.

If you are real serious I would suggest you get some help, its a very hard book to understand, people get mighty confused by it

Never said that people shouldnt read or be encouraged to read it, sorry you think I implied that

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: Raggedyman

It is written to Christians, it's not written to non believers.

I thought it was written to everyone so they could recieve the good news of salvation.

It's a spiritual book, it's not pro war, pro politics, pro slavery, anti gay or whatever you want it to be.

So basically ignore what it says. Or at least, the parts that are pro-murder, pro-slavery, et cetera.

You can't apply real world understanding to its teachings

Because it doesn’t have real world application.

I can't understand how secularists read the bible in a non spiritual context

It's spiritual and it's not addressing you

So all these people that religious missionaries convert are doing what? Blessing them with spiritual discernment before they read any scripture? If not then surely they are reading it in a “non spiritual context”, no? At least prior to believing. Are you sure you don’t understand. Seems straight forward to me.

You know outside of all the snide smugness and arrogance, you are partly right

The Bible doesnt have a real world application, it teaches the opposite of living in this world.
Go read the sermon on the mount and see who gets blessed.

All the other stuff you added, why?

Just as a FYI, the Bible was originally a spoken word, the gospels were first spoken, only years latter written.

a reply to: Raggedyman

The NT applies to Christians, guess who the OT applies to

To Christians. At least that's what Christ said:

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. Matthew 5:17

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” Luke 16:17

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” John7:19

The Law of Moses refers primarily to the Torah or first five books of the Hebrew Bible, traditionally believed to be written by Moses. source

Jesus is saying OT stuff applies until all Biblical events come to fruition.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Raggedyman

You know, IF Christians didn't tell people the bible is meant to be taken literally... or the whole "every word is from God" shtick... secularist wouldn't attempt to read it in such a fashion)

I personally dont know any Christians who say the bible is meant to be taken literally, this is a straw man argument.

As for the "every word is from God" camp, there are some who think that, but when probed a bit deeper will admit they dont meant that literally either.

Just ask them, is this from God?
2 Timothy 4:13 When you come, bring my coat that I left in Troas with Carpus; bring the books too, and especially the ones made of parchment.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Just as a FYI, the Bible was originally a spoken word, the gospels were first spoken, only years latter written.

Not years but decades, some of the gospels actually don't appear until 170ad (John for ex).
The current form of NT gospels was put together in the 7 century ad. after they discarded plenty other gospels that didn't made it to the book, (with many contradictions of the known stories of Jesus) for ex the gospel of Barabbas, and some gnostic gospels that didn't fit the theocratic monarchism and the priesthood of that time.
Until the 4th century ad, the divinity of Christ wasn't yet decided.
Was he a man? was he a god? was he a son of god? son of man? part of god?

And Paul's gospel very suspicious, since he didn't even met Christ.
All his writings come from what he saw in his personal supernatural experience.
Coincidental following the trends of messianic Jews and borrowing stories from Josephus biography, Titus Triumph in Judea, and the symbolic mystical characteristics of Dionysus, Apollo, Mythras and Serapis.
All of them popular at that time.

As the centuries passed by and Christianity was forced among the pagan Europe and middle east,
The content of the New Testament changed and translated so many times and psalms were added in the middle ages.
The original Greek one has lost it's original meanings of words not translated well to Latin and later to English.

the NT gospels were not only for christians, They were meant to create christians out of occupants of the Romans.

All the above mean that the bible should be taken as a combination of related different stories with a common concept.
It's not ''authentic'' to the claimed origins and authors, places and situations that took place historicaly