Nonduality VS creating your reality

a reply to: MyHappyDogShiner

Yes, and from another point of view, actually 100% is on autopilot, including conscious decisions.

originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: Bluesma

So you're saying there might be some degree of free will? What further speculation were you referring to?

I was saying that your argument doesn't apply to the hypothesis I offered, in which there is a small degree of free will.

That it is in the choice of perception: in judgement, organization, and processing of thoughts about our experiences..... which have an influence in the choices and behaviors that shall come out of you later.

a reply to: Bluesma

If you are talking about absolute free will then it is certain there is no control. Any descision you make has to have a cause. It's impossible to make a descision free from cause. Suggesting otherwise would not make any sense because there is complete lack of evidence and logic. What you seem to be suggesting cannot be mapped on into any conceivable reality.

Plus, there is direct experience. I have no idea what my next thought will be. I see no control in my experience. If there was control, I would be able to pinpoint it into my experience, but I can't. Doesn't make any sense for it to exist.

a reply to: Andy1144

You are correct in saying everything must have a cause including our thoughts/ideas.
However we do have free choice in deciding how to put those thoughts/ideas into action or not.

To not have choice would render us as pre programmed robots which we are not

originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: Bluesma

If you are talking about absolute free will then it is certain there is no control. Any descision you make has to have a cause. It's impossible to make a descision free from cause. Suggesting otherwise would not make any sense because there is complete lack of evidence and logic. What you seem to be suggesting cannot be mapped on into any conceivable reality.

I think you do not understand. I must not have worded it clearly.

Um... like Pavlovs dogs, your body gets trained by it's experiences.

We see clearly in physical interactions with the world - you burn your finger once, and then you have the automatic reflex to pull your hand away from fire. You don't need to think about it or choose it. Okay?

Now, your brain can develop more pathways of repulsion or attraction to stimuli of even more subtle sorts with time.

You witness a person doing something. For some reason or another you judge it "bad" to do. You form an idea in mind that that person is inherently "bad".

In that moment of judgement about what was seen, you created, with your will, a negative association with that person.

THAT will influence the choices and reactions you have to that person later - even if you don't plan it, you don't think it out, it shall arise according to that past choice of perception.

It might seem you had nothing to do with actually choosing it. Or you could create a rationalisation/explaination for it, to gain a sense that you chose it consciously.

What I find interesting is, that even if the rationalisation or conclusion you come up with is false.

It will impact future responses too!

A part of your brain that judges and categorizes is somewhat like the trainer of the body. It gives "treats" for what it deems good , and punishments for what it deems "bad" with neurotransmitters. Then, well, yeah, the body is on it's own, in a sense. It will follow it's training.

I suspect our only freedom lies in this choice of perception and judgement about what arises in front of us.


You can take that further, into the creating your reality thing, if you consider that people pick up subconscious signals and are often influenced to respond as they are expected. That person you once judged "bad"? Your reactions to them will probably provoke them to confirm that bias.

a reply to: Bluesma

"What I find interesting is, that even if the rationalisation or conclusion you come up with is false.

It will impact future responses too! "
I don't think I've mentioned this at all, I was speaking about free will from another perspective. What your presenting is a different point of view, which I agree with.

True liberation lies in seeing through the illusion of a self. This is the most worthwhile thing you can do as a human.

a reply to: Andy1144

Conscious decisions are more like conscious delusions I think, for most anyway.

One cannot really visualize it until one steps away or is forced away and views it from the outside looking in.

Most who are forced away, or choose to step away cannot handle the remoteness of the lack of reality and react in self destructive ways to themselves and sometimes to others.

People have been slaves for so long that many go bonkers when they are freed from the herd and find themselves in a position to enjoy something more akin to something like to free will, addiction and abuse of other things frequently result and are really only impulse control issues in most instances.

One cannot conspicuously be free for fear of scaring those who are not as free as they believe themselves to be.

I enjoy it, the herd interferes with my bliss at times along with the conditioning that was inflicted upon me from a young age makes it (freedom) difficult to deal with on occasion.

I have often been called a loser, but with nothing to lose, how is it one could be one?.

Is the loser the one who is trapped in a house and has a mortgage to pay off, also has a car that is the only thing that approaches the value of the house to pay off, not being able to leave because he can't go anywhere because he has to work some soul crushing job to pay it off?, or the one who can come and go as one pleases because of a modest lifestyle and frugality?.

Call me confused. I don't care. I am freer than most.

Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: Bluesma

True liberation lies in seeing through the illusion of a self. This is the most worthwhile thing you can do as a human.

Okay. I'm not totally on board with that - it all depends upon what one's concept of "self" is.

I mean, consider someone who thinks that the self is quite simply the physical body - then denying it exists, is pretty stupid and useless in this world!

But in my point of view, as the individual will being that tiny split second power to choose perception, which creates patterns of the past, which determine the patterns of the future, IS the individual will or "self".

It might not seem like it, if that will is still forming their perceptions upon what they were taught when forming, sticking to the formulas of value and meaning their caretakers held. But freedom is experienced when it breaks out of those and can play with perception, reaching outside of the known, to create NEW patterns, and new experiences!

But we can agree to disagree on that.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: Bluesma

True liberation lies in seeing through the illusion of a self. This is the most worthwhile thing you can do as a human.

Okay. I'm not totally on board with that - it all depends upon what one's concept of "self" is.

I mean, consider someone who thinks that the self is quite simply the physical body - then denying it exists, is pretty stupid and useless in this world!

The true Self is that which never changes - the body is in constant change. The body was once very small and could not walk or talk - but now it is big and can talk and walk - so it is not staying the same - one day it will be very fragile and it will stop moving completely at some point.
What is here now that has always been here? What knows that the body is changing?
It is the same with thoughts - they come and go - but what knows that thought comes and goes?

Whatever is appearing, appears to exist - including the body and thoughts and sensations. However, anything that appears to exist disappears. No 'thing' stays the same.

It is only THAT which does not appear to exist which is constant - never changing. There is some thing (which is not a thing) which is ever present - but because it is ever present it generally gets overlooked.
Because it is overlooked it is sought for - but it can never be found because it is never not here. It must be 'realized' not found.

When That which is freely aware is recognized - this is what may occur.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

The true Self is that which never changes - the body is in constant change.

Well, for some people, they don't see it that way. Some don't believe there is anything else, no "self" except this body (in whatever state it is now) and the other bodies around it and environment which make up "not self".

Maybe they don't feel the need to believe or experience a self which is completely static and unchanging?
Maybe they are comfortable with the change, with mortality, with nonexistence when that self/body passes?

I don't know. But for some, that is what they percieve and believe, and I feel no need to change their minds.
Often that view keeps them very active and effective in this world, so to each their own, as long as it isn't harming anyone else!

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

The true Self is that which never changes - the body is in constant change.

Well, for some people, they don't see it that way. Some don't believe there is anything else, no "self" except this body (in whatever state it is now) and the other bodies around it and environment which make up "not self".

Why are you referring to 'some people' and what 'they' believe?

Have 'you' noticed that the body is changing?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

The true Self is that which never changes - the body is in constant change.

Well, for some people, they don't see it that way. Some don't believe there is anything else, no "self" except this body (in whatever state it is now) and the other bodies around it and environment which make up "not self".

Who are those 'some people'?
Who are 'they'?
Why are you referring to 'some people' and what 'they' believe?

Have 'you' noticed that the body is changing?

No use asking questions for which you know will refuse any answer that arises.
Others don't exist for you, so it is useless to ask which ones.

I'll answer anyway, though you never change, and are very predictable.

There are tons of people who feel that way. My husband is the one I know closest. My stepdad is another.
People you and I both might be familiar with ... someone that comes to mind is LesMisanthrope.

All nonexisting to you, of course, so impossible to respect their separate views, feelings, thoughts.... but I answered the question that arose, with no attachment to outcome.

a reply to: Bluesma
Have you noticed that the body is changing?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: Bluesma
Have you noticed that the body is changing?????

Of course!!! So what?

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: Bluesma
Have you noticed that the body is changing?????

Of course!!! So what?

What knows it is changing? Wouldn't that be what you are?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

What knows it is changing? Wouldn't that be what you are?

In my perspective, it is the "self" I described experiencing earlier - a capacity or action of percieving. Of forming order, values, meanings, out of each moment. It doesn't have any other characteristics except that ability. It observes and creates order out of past and future.


But, of course, in the view we are discussing, in which there is only the body and material world, I think those people would answer you that it is their neurons firing away in their grey matter. That's all.

I identify "self" as both that ray of awareness I describe, and the meaty matter.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

What knows it is changing? Wouldn't that be what you are?

In my perspective, it is the "self" I described experiencing earlier - a capacity or action of percieving. Of forming order, values, meanings, out of each moment. It doesn't have any other characteristics except that ability. It observes and creates order out of past and future.

But, of course, in the view we are discussing, in which there is only the body and material world, I think those people would answer you that it is their neurons firing away in their grey matter. That's all.

Can you notice that you are what is 'noticing'? 'The 'capacity to perceive' - is never not here and now. But the past and future are images which are perceived but not true. Only now is true. Thought speaks about before and after.
Can true order be created out of a dead image - the past is dead but is used to create a future image.
What is here now is alive but is missed because the dead image is brought here by thought - thought is in coherent - it does not line up with what is real.
This that is right now is real and it can be obscured by the dead image of before.

If preconceptions are held then life as it is will never truly be known - and there will be a search for some thing that will make everything better.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Uh... you seem to have me confused with someone interested in possessing "truth" and rejecting "illusion".

But that is to be expected under the circumstances you find yourself creating, with no one existing but your "true self".

Creativity of Now happens in the embracing of all duality - the yin and yang, etc. etc.....including the poles "truth" and "illusion".

a reply to: Bluesma
Is it possible to discuss what is being discussed without bringing other stuff in? Other people, other concepts?

Can you notice what is noticing all that appears and then disappears? Feelings intensify and then subside. Sounds arise and subside.
The mind will no doubt reach out for support from somewhere - from LesMis even. Or even a statement heard from some when else. But notice that that is noticed.

If you are anything you are That which is noticing what is happening. What is happening cannot be changed by what you are - just noticed.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: Bluesma
Is it possible to discuss what is being discussed without bringing other stuff in? Other people, other concepts?

All people, all concepts, are all part of the topic of discussion - which is nonduality.

You asked "which people" have that belief system being discussed.

I cannot give a list of all the millions in the world who see things that way - I don't even know all their names.

This is always such a silly word game of refusal to communicate with others...like contually trying to convince yourself that we don't exist.

As usual, I'll check out of this completely infertile exchange between you and you.