The conspiracy of the necessity of government

I had to chuckle and smile when I thought about the title of this thread...

Clever, very clever.

Of course human beings can exist and live without a government, but that doesn't mean that we won't slowly form them over time. As I already posted, we can't help but form rudimentary forms of government. Even inside a family a hierarchy exists, which in and of itself is a form of inter-familial governance.

So as to the title -- no, of course a government isn't necessary -- but it is inevitable.

a reply to: theantediluvian

You can live this way right now if you really want to, the Amish do it (to a degree anyway).

Except you have to join their club.

Rural folk do pretty well, lots of places. They detest cities, make their own way, mostly. The also have closed communities, for good reason.

My problem is I am trapped by circumstance, unable to move because I simply can't afford to. There is no future for older people to simply walk out the door and see how far their tired feet can carry them, until they drop.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: intrptr

So its broke, lets flush it and start over. You grow some food and I'll raise some stock and someone else can start a market and others repair shoes and bicycles…. if theres trouble someone ring the town bell and everyone come running.

Sorry, internet has to go. We'll be too busy.

You can live this way right now if you really want to, the Amish do it (to a degree anyway). There's nothing stopping you. Being a gambling man myself, I'll wager that when push comes to shove, very few of you have nearly a fraction of the commitment to this pipe dream of a idyllic agrarian lifestyle that you pretend. Otherwise, you'd stop blabbering about it on Internet forums and go join the people that are already living that way in various parts of the country/world.

It is socialism not liberalism that threatens to force everyone back to agrarian lifestyle out of necessity.

If you live in a city you live in the biggest socialist construct of them all. Most people will deny this but also demand public schools, police protection, fire departments, mail delivery, public transportation, welfare, parks and recreation, etc, etc. All socialism, all provided by the government.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
I had to chuckle and smile when I thought about the title of this thread...

Clever, very clever.

Of course human beings can exist and live without a government, but that doesn't mean that we won't slowly form them over time. As I already posted, we can't help but form rudimentary forms of government. Even inside a family a hierarchy exists, which in and of itself is a form of inter-familial governance.

So as to the title -- no, of course a government isn't necessary -- but it is inevitable.

This needs to be quoted again. It is 100% true. Necessary and inevitability aren't the same thing, to assume that they are is folly.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
I had to chuckle and smile when I thought about the title of this thread...

Clever, very clever.

Of course human beings can exist and live without a government, but that doesn't mean that we won't slowly form them over time. As I already posted, we can't help but form rudimentary forms of government. Even inside a family a hierarchy exists, which in and of itself is a form of inter-familial governance.

So as to the title -- no, of course a government isn't necessary -- but it is inevitable.

This needs to be quoted again. It is 100% true. Necessary and inevitability aren't the same thing, to assume that they are is folly.

Exactly. I could live 100% alone in the woods just fine. I can eat berries and try to capture small critters to eat. If I ever encounter other humans though, and decide not to kill them -- a social hierarchy will be formed.

So sure, you can live without government -- but even if you just breed and have offspring, a rudimentary form of governance within your own family is created -- a hierarchy of parent/child is established. The older sibling vs. younger sibling, ect, ect.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Of course, it's a hold over from ape social culture. Apes form hierarchical communities all the time. Humans are apes. It's instinct.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Krazysh0t

They may help out their immediate family and their friends, but without the government the law of the land becomes might makes right.

Okay, Big Brother, you act as though there never was a land before government. Interdependant local communities before large cities were called towns. They could only possibly exist because they were successful, directly supporting each other.

If mega corp shut down, people would have to restart their own small version of it. Local famers would be the new grocery store. No need for paper currency or banks, Gold is universally recognized. You don't have any Gold, what you got to trade? No barter goods, what can you do?

The original function of a constitutionally prescribed Limited Government is to provide for the common defense and support itself, not by taxing the people, but by charging tariffs on import and export of trade goods.

Solely.

Local communalism/agrarianism. Basically how free humans are meant to live. I would give anything to make that possible for people today, or even just for the people I love. I suppose it is still possible, but far from easy. You try that anywhere in the U.S., and you'll eventually have the Feds beating down your door for some contrived technicality. Like that guy who lived up in the Appalachians (he was on some TV show I think) and started a small eco-community- they eventually got him for building code violations.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
I had to chuckle and smile when I thought about the title of this thread...

Clever, very clever.

Of course human beings can exist and live without a government, but that doesn't mean that we won't slowly form them over time. As I already posted, we can't help but form rudimentary forms of government. Even inside a family a hierarchy exists, which in and of itself is a form of inter-familial governance.

So as to the title -- no, of course a government isn't necessary -- but it is inevitable.

Glad I could make you smile.

A government may not be necessary, but the current US government sells itself as something that people cannot live without. Why, if a government shut down happens all sorts of nightmare scenarios present itself. The current government, our current government panics at the thought of people existing with the need of their wonderful and kind and benevolent services. imho

originally posted by: DBCowboy
In a recent thread I made the comment that it would benefit all of us if government actually shut down. I'd like to expand on that.

We all have heard the threats that would happen every time there is a budget issue in Washington. Government might shut down! Services will be disrupted! People will starve! People will die!

I think this is all a lie. It is a conspiracy propagated by government to insure that the dependence on government remains. If government actually shut down for a few months, people would have to resort to actually helping other people. No longer would the responsibility of taking care of those less fortunate be on the shoulders of government.

Government is like a pain killer. A little bit in the right place works wonders. Too much, and you get addicted. In the end, you keep telling yourself that the original pain was so bad, it's worth maintaining the addiction. This isn't true, you're just an addict making excuses.

For clarity, I mean "you" in a general philosophical sense, not directly addressing or accusing OP!

a reply to: DBCowboy

Why hasn't someone bought an island or built a huge floating barge (maybe connect several floating oil platforms) together and create their own libertarian utopia?

It's not like anyone is forced to live here, you can move to another country or go form your own new country. Sure, it isn't easy to create a new country -- but with enough people and resources one could be granted micronation status from the United Nations.

People love to complain, but never put actions behind their words. I'd love to see examples of strong-willed, independent, freedom-loving individuals with a pioneering spirit go start their own perfect society.

The Pilgrims did it, so can anyone else if they want.

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: DBCowboy
In a recent thread I made the comment that it would benefit all of us if government actually shut down. I'd like to expand on that.

We all have heard the threats that would happen every time there is a budget issue in Washington. Government might shut down! Services will be disrupted! People will starve! People will die!

I think this is all a lie. It is a conspiracy propagated by government to insure that the dependence on government remains. If government actually shut down for a few months, people would have to resort to actually helping other people. No longer would the responsibility of taking care of those less fortunate be on the shoulders of government.

Government is like a pain killer. A little bit in the right place works wonders. Too much, and you get addicted. In the end, you keep telling yourself that the original pain was so bad, it's worth maintaining the addiction. This isn't true, you're just an addict making excuses.

For clarity, I mean "you" in a general philosophical sense, not directly addressing or accusing OP!

That's actually a real good analogy.

Thanks!

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

Why hasn't someone bought an island or built a huge floating barge (maybe connect several floating oil platforms) together and create their own libertarian utopia?

It's not like anyone is forced to live here, you can move to another country or go form your own new country. Sure, it isn't easy to create a new country -- but with enough people and resources one could be granted micronation status from the United Nations.

People love to complain, but never put actions behind their words. I'd love to see examples of strong-willed, independent, freedom-loving individuals with a pioneering spirit go start their own perfect society.

The Pilgrims did it, so can anyone else if they want.

What I find funny is all the people telling me to move to another country or create another country because I don't like the current government. But when I tell people who are espousing socialism to move to a socialistic country, they act shocked and say, "But this is America!"

So. . . um. . . . lol.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

Why hasn't someone bought an island or built a huge floating barge (maybe connect several floating oil platforms) together and create their own libertarian utopia?

It's not like anyone is forced to live here, you can move to another country or go form your own new country. Sure, it isn't easy to create a new country -- but with enough people and resources one could be granted micronation status from the United Nations.

People love to complain, but never put actions behind their words. I'd love to see examples of strong-willed, independent, freedom-loving individuals with a pioneering spirit go start their own perfect society.

The Pilgrims did it, so can anyone else if they want.

They don't do it because it's not possible as things stand now. You think we're "complainers", and maybe I think you're corrupt slaves who have been hopelessly brainwashed.

Don't worry though, things will change. And when the change comes, you'll have to pick a side.

Better pick the right one.

geez, do some here want to go back to being under a king, or some other tyrant?....the entire idea of a representative government was to stymy the excesses of great wealth and power from a few people, to a government where the wealth can be shared among it's people that actually do the work....all you anarchists can move to Somalia, there isn't a government around to bother you and your sense of true freedom....I like living in a civilized society, with modern conveniences.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: yuppa

When did we use to think long term? I can't think of a single time during American history where that was the case. Heck the American Civil War happened because politicians kept playing "Kick the Can" with the slavery issue until it blew up in everyone's face, and that issue started with the creation of the country.

The FRAMERS used to think long term. otherwise we would have no constitution.

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Krazysh0t

They may help out their immediate family and their friends, but without the government the law of the land becomes might makes right.

Okay, Big Brother, you act as though there never was a land before government. Interdependant local communities before large cities were called towns. They could only possibly exist because they were successful, directly supporting each other.

If mega corp shut down, people would have to restart their own small version of it. Local famers would be the new grocery store. No need for paper currency or banks, Gold is universally recognized. You don't have any Gold, what you got to trade? No barter goods, what can you do?

The original function of a constitutionally prescribed Limited Government is to provide for the common defense and support itself, not by taxing the people, but by charging tariffs on import and export of trade goods.

Solely.

Local communalism/agrarianism. Basically how free humans are meant to live. I would give anything to make that possible for people today, or even just for the people I love. I suppose it is still possible, but far from easy. You try that anywhere in the U.S., and you'll eventually have the Feds beating down your door for some contrived technicality. Like that guy who lived up in the Appalachians (he was on some TV show I think) and started a small eco-community- they eventually got him for building code violations.

Thank you, well said.

a reply to: DBCowboy

To be honest, it would actually be easier to start your own little country from scratch than get the USA to come to a screeching halt and change directions. We're poised to become more like Europe, we've been following in their footsteps ever since the colonists landed here. In 50 years America will look like how Europe is today.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I wish the written word could convey how utterly disgusted I am at the thought. You are right, though.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
People love to complain, but never put actions behind their words. I'd love to see examples of strong-willed, independent, freedom-loving individuals with a pioneering spirit go start their own perfect society.

The Pilgrims did it, so can anyone else if they want.

If you remember history, look at what the Pilgrims did to the Native Americans already living there.
What's to stop existing societies from squashing newly developed ones just like that?
Also I think that any current government would do anything to sabotage those, who try to break away from the flock, if only to maintain the status quo.

a reply to: Tyrion79

I'm fairly sure that if you packed up everything and got a bunch of other people with you and went metaphorically "west" like the Mormons did, no one would stop you.

Perhaps it will be the religious fundamentalists once again the colonize the solar system and planets.