The conspiracy of the necessity of government

a reply to: Krazysh0t

So are you arguing in favor of anarchy or democracy here?

No, you are the one limiting choices to those two.

I keep saying a limited government you keep crying anarchy. Just like the Government threatening to "shut down" if they can't spend more. Just like the Department of Defense, threatening everyone with terrorism to justify endless war. Just like the Banks threatening to crash the economy unless they are bailed out.

The problem is Big government, Military and Corporations, not what happens without them.

a reply to: intrptr

I'm saying anarchy because that is what the OP suggested. A country without a government, which is anarchy. You brought up limited government/libertarianism and keep trying to put words in my mouth like I've been arguing against Libertarianism the whole time. I'm also not saying that our current system is all sunshine and rainbows either.

a reply to: greencmp

well, I'll just say that I am depending on my three sons to keep me going and well.... we are all sinking very, very fast!!!
the answer has to lay with the business sector, ya know the ones who would rather ship any and every job they can overseas so they can get by paying slave wages while paying the rest of us lower and lower wages so that they can pay their big shots more and more money and report "record profits" and keep their stockholders happy? all the while buying out our legislatures so they can pay less and less taxes as they place more of their responsibilities for their workers on the gov'ts backs!

a reply to: Krazysh0t

At least we agree its broke.

You brought up limited government/libertarianism and keep trying to put words in my mouth like I've been arguing against Libertarianism the whole time. I'm also not saying that our current system is all sunshine and rainbows either.

Respectfully, you redefine what I am saying. You just did it again. I mean a limited representative government of, by and for the people, butyou add on "Libertarainism".

The definition of which we can argue all day as well.

So its broke, lets flush it and start over. You grow some food and I'll raise some stock and someone else can start a market and others repair shoes and bicycles…. if theres trouble someone ring the town bell and everyone come running.

Sorry, internet has to go. We'll be too busy.

a reply to: intrptr

except that no one knows how to do those basic things anymore....
how many know how to take the wool from a sheep and turn it into a roll of cloth so someone can sew it into a piece of clothing? or do the same with cotton? will your community even be able to grow cotton? how many factories in your area are equipped to mass produce clothing, or anything else that is really of use?

ya, nice dream and all, but well.....
if you don't at least know how to tan a hide, it's really just a dream....

a reply to: intrptr

Just because it's broke doesn't mean I want to scrap the whole process. Why stop and start over and instead just try to fix the system we have? I DO happen to like our Constitution.

a reply to: DBCowboy

We would return to taking care of each other.

Return to taking care of each other? When was this mythical time you speak of when people took care of each other and lived in blissful harmonious anarchy?

It never existed.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: greencmp

well, I'll just say that I am depending on my three sons to keep me going and well.... we are all sinking very, very fast!!!
the answer has to lay with the business sector, ya know the ones who would rather ship any and every job they can overseas so they can get by paying slave wages while paying the rest of us lower and lower wages so that they can pay their big shots more and more money and report "record profits" and keep their stockholders happy? all the while buying out our legislatures so they can pay less and less taxes as they place more of their responsibilities for their workers on the gov'ts backs!

It has been government's regulatory powers that have enabled preferential anti-competitive legislation, not the free market.

With less regulatory power to peddle, cronies can't control the market.

a reply to: dawnstar

Some where there are warehouses filled with cloth, food, and stored emergency supplies. The very big secretive, greedy government and mega corporations are hiding it, storing it all for themselves or to sell at inflated prices nobody can afford.

There are plenty of people who know where this stuff is. And seamstresses, too believe it or not. How about refineries with millions of barrels of reserve gas for military, aviation and shipping? Suddenly it all becomes available for the ordinary folk.

I also think my neighbor is much better at fixing potholes than the government in the roads around here. Cheaper, too. He can't wait to get started.

Of course, we'll have to hire traffic guards for intersections and lots of people to learn how to till and plant. Then theres carpenters, plumbers, animal husbandry, doctors. Doctors will actually get paid for a change, not submit forms and get denied payment by insurance corp.

Those people, along with corrupt officials, bankers and lawmakers will be shoveling our # and washing garbage cans for a living. Who isn't behind that?

Your its only a dream attitude is because you don't want to get up with the sun, work all day with y our hands and goto bed at dark.

Bwah, I want my cushy provided for lifestyle.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Just because it's broke doesn't mean I want to scrap the whole process.

The "whole" process is the problem.

But there you go again, all or nothing.

Spelling it for the last time…. L_I_M_I_T_E_D.

a reply to: greencmp

With less regulatory power to peddle, cronies can't control the market.

Exactly. What the government calls protection in the form of Regulations is really just squashing competition. The little guy can't afford to stay afloat with all the requirements.

a reply to: intrptr

You said it!

So its broke, lets flush it and start over.

What do you think it means to "flush it and start over"?

a reply to: intrptr

So its broke, lets flush it and start over. You grow some food and I'll raise some stock and someone else can start a market and others repair shoes and bicycles…. if theres trouble someone ring the town bell and everyone come running.

Sorry, internet has to go. We'll be too busy.

You can live this way right now if you really want to, the Amish do it (to a degree anyway). There's nothing stopping you. Being a gambling man myself, I'll wager that when push comes to shove, very few of you have nearly a fraction of the commitment to this pipe dream of a idyllic agrarian lifestyle that you pretend. Otherwise, you'd stop blabbering about it on Internet forums and go join the people that are already living that way in various parts of the country/world.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: intrptr

So its broke, lets flush it and start over. You grow some food and I'll raise some stock and someone else can start a market and others repair shoes and bicycles…. if theres trouble someone ring the town bell and everyone come running.

Sorry, internet has to go. We'll be too busy.

You can live this way right now if you really want to, the Amish do it (to a degree anyway). There's nothing stopping you. Being a gambling man myself, I'll wager that when push comes to shove, very few of you have nearly a fraction of the commitment to this pipe dream of a idyllic agrarian lifestyle that you pretend. Otherwise, you'd stop blabbering about it on Internet forums and go join the people that are already living that way in various parts of the country/world.

It is socialism not liberalism that threatens to force everyone back to agrarian lifestyle out of necessity.

a reply to: intrptr

I'm usually up before the sun, even though I have no job to go to, and I've done my share of hard work, when I could still do that kind of work. tried my luck with gardening, still haven't caught on. and it seems kind of ironic, that the best paid people in the country are those who quite frankly the most work they do with their hands is push folders from one end of their desk to the other!
my it's only a dream is because most people now days it seems wouldn't even know how to cook a meal unless it came frozen in a box, they have no clue how to grow or hunt their food, let alone preserve it. and they have no idea how to sew, let alone how to weave the cloth to sew with.
and well you mention the warehouses full of crap, ya, reckon how much it's all worth? add to that all the land the various levels of gov't owns, along with the mineral rights they own, along with the gold that it owns, along with the money that is owed it by other countries along with our own citizens.. heck wonder how much George Washington and Jefferson National Forests are worth? That's 1.8 million acres of prime real estate, should bring in a nice sum of money don't ya think? the gov't is far from broke, it just wants us to think it is.

I wasn't aware of the depth of reliance that society has on government. Government sure has made itself indispensable to the fabric of society.

In my OP, I laughingly mocked government when they implied that we would all die without their influence and guidance. Perhaps we would, according to many here.

a reply to: greencmp

It is socialism not liberalism that threatens to force everyone back to agrarian lifestyle out of necessity.

You'll have to excuse me if I require something more concrete than superficial rhetoric and unsubstantiated claims.

It has been government's regulatory powers that have enabled preferential anti-competitive legislation, not the free market.

With less regulatory power to peddle, cronies can't control the market.

Complete and utter fantasy born of a disregard for history, an ignorance of anti-competitive practices and an irrational faith in mythical unregulated free markets, governed by natural laws, that free of intervention by the evil state will settle into a state of equilibrium, providing maximum benefit for all.

Perfect competition is basically a theoretical construct with little to no real world examples.

In the real world, humans collude and lie and behave in unethical and anti-competitive ways and get away with it and they do so without any help from the government. They form cartels and act in concert with supposed competitors for their mutual benefit and against the interests of other competitors in the market, vendors, consumers, investors, etc.

That's not to say that all intervention is good or necessary and that governments aren't often a corrupting influence but those facts shouldn't be taken to mean that any market free of all regulation and subsidization is inherently better or even good.

Informal systems of hierarchy always form when people exist in proximity to one another. People are naturally inclined to be followers, selecting someone to direct them and give them purpose.

This isn't something forced upon us, its in our very nature to want to group together and form "packs" and "tribes" -- life is easier and we accomplish more when we cooperate instead of living solitary lives.

Humans are also naturally social animals. In prison the worst punishment they give you is solitary confinement. People go insane being locked alone in a room. We ache to be noticed, loved, understood and validated by our peers.

Because of our very nature, humans will always form some kind of government to organize themselves. Even a loose tribe is a form of "government".

a reply to: DBCowboy

Who said that "we would all die?" Typical binary reasoning. I really have a difficult time imagining the amount of self-delusion required to reduce any proposition to a false dichotomy of polar opposites.

The only two possible outcomes are "we would all die" or we would all "return to taking care of each other" (again, I'm waiting for evidence of this mythical state of human existence)? Really?

No. There's an effectively infinite number of possible outcomes. The real consideration is the risk to reward ratio. What are the risks? What are the rewards? What are the probabilities of each?

Rational problem solving versus emotional self-gratification.

a reply to: dawnstar

I used to hunt and fish. Became to costly, the fish are drying up. The mountain streams are toxic, the permits and fees to do all this gaming and fishing, besides driving a hundred miles to get out the city, let alone vehicle, gas, insurance, gear…

I used to garden on my folks 1/4 acre, was really good at it, too. Except for meat, I grew everything we needed to survive as a family, with surplus.

The stupids got divorced and sold the property.

I used to dumpster dive, flea market and recycle metals, etc. The small businesses went under, the corporations all guard their landfill now. The flea market is prohibitively expensive, what with limitations on sellable items, entrance fee, sales permit. Besides people aren't buying as much anymore, they don't have the money to spend.
The metal recycle centers don't pay as much for metals as they used to, even though the prices are up across the board.

I have to settle for indentured servitude to my elderly mother, stricken by a stroke. She has the same problem everyone else seems to have these days, selfish and childish.

I don't see much hope in the future for others, either. They contend with increasing prices for basic staples, longer hours and less pay.

I'd give anything now to be back on that quarter acre, rebuilding the green house, making compost and turning the soil for next years crop.