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RF resonant cavity thruster (EM Thruster) pass initial vacuum tests for JSC Eagleworks!

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posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 04:17 PM
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I didn't really see this in the technology area so I thought I would post it.

I've read about this thruster design in the past, and recent test earlier in the year suggested they wanted to verify results in a vacuum chamber to rule out other causes, but now it looks like even those test are leaving scientists to lean more towards this being the real deal. You can read about the engine HERE on wiki, or just google it up for yourself.

Here is an image from JSC Eagleworks showing the field surface distribution.



The main argument to the premise of this engine, is that initially it was thought to violate the law of conservation of motion. According to its creator Roger Shawyer though, who invented the EM Drive in the early 2000s, says: "To put it simply, electricity converts into microwaves within the cavity that push against the inside of the device, causing the thruster to accelerate in the opposite direction,". Long story short, he basically he thinks it's supported by the Lorentz force - F = q(E + νB).

And according to the Eagleworks vacuum tests it, it actually looks like that may be really be whats happening (but not confirmed yet). NASASpaceflight.com has really tried hard to debunk this, but so far, they haven't.


So now where talking about earth to mars transits of 90 days (for the record, a 1-2 megawatt power source is needed...hard but not impossible to get into space...but just to be devils advocate....).

Guess what? There is icing on this cake....

Reported on NASASpaceflights forum HERE it has been reported that lasers fired (taking measurements i'm assuming) into the resonant chamber that the laser light exceeded the speed of normal light at 300,000 kps...the "theory" is that inside the cavity a bubble of space time is getting warped (causing the appearance of faster than light...er light).

Well..to me this is just incredible. It wouldn't surprise me if the warping theory turns into something that isn't warping at all, but what an extra bonus to an already cool finding on the latest research.

Both NASA and institutes in China, and Germany having been researching this engine, so its not like this crack pot science.

What do you think ATS? Sounds great to me.





posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 04:21 PM
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Source?



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 04:28 PM
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My son just sent me a paragraph to translate from english to french, and it was from this page.
He's a physics major in university, I however, ended up sweating from the effort. This stuff is complicated enough to read in my own language already....

I did the translation work, and still don't get how it works.
But it looks interesting anyway.

edit on 3-11-2015 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 04:33 PM
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originally posted by: GetHyped
Source?


I've listed 2, but here is more if you need them.
here
and another
slashdot


edit on 3-11-2015 by sirChill because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-11-2015 by sirChill because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-11-2015 by sirChill because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 04:51 PM
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How fast?

They say a scaled up version could cut time travel between planets to weeks but, they don't say which planets.

How fast in atmosphere and how fast out of it?



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 04:55 PM
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a reply to: sirChill

The first two are old sources that have been discussed to death on here. The last one is a forum post.

The sources in your OP consist of a Wikipedia article and another forum post.

Do you have any sources that are up to date?
edit on 3-11-2015 by GetHyped because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: GetHyped


more1
more2
more3



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 06:28 PM
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a reply to: abe froman


but, they don't say which planets.


Any of the planets would be great.



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 06:36 PM
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That looks like a Chladni plate resonance pattern. So they are getting space-time itself to resonate?



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 07:58 PM
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Does this mean that if we all turn our microwaves to power level 10, open the doors and turn them on all on at once, then we can move the Earth?

But really, that this hasn't been debunked (yet) is weird and neat... about time. It's usually anomalies, after all, that open up whole new vistas of knowledge.



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 10:10 PM
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originally posted by: sirChill

Both NASA and institutes in China, and Germany having been researching this engine, so its not like this crack pot science.

What do you think ATS? Sounds great to me.



I wouldn't be so excited just yet. No matter how you slice or dice it, this machine violates momentum conservation. Much of fundamental physics known today is built on this principle, and if this machine works, practically all of it would have to be reworked. Not only that, but it would have huge consequences in the way we think about space and the homogeneity of space which follows from momentum conservation.

An FTL device would be a lot easier to incorporate and accept in mainstream physics (would violate only the WEC in GR) than this machine that breaks conservation of momentum. Right now, it's a lot more likely that these people are crackpots who don't know what they are doing than one of the cornerstone principles of physics being found to be violated surprisingly in attempts at building better propulsion systems but was missed at all the accelerators around the world where such violations of conservation laws would easily have shown up by now.



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 10:20 PM
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We'd have to figure out a shielding technique to keep tiny grains of particulate matter from destroying the vessel though. Even a grain of sand at those speeds would be fatal.



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 10:58 PM
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//edit
F= force
q= charge of particle
E and B are vector quantities which means they are "pointing" in a direction and have a magnitude.
v x B is the cross product not simple multiplication

you can add both E and (v x B) with the principle of superposition being adding the (x,y,z components of each to each other).

In physics, particularly electromagnetism, the Lorentz force is the combination of electric and magnetic force on a point charge due to electromagnetic fields. If a particle of charge q moves with velocity v in the presence of an electric field E and a magnetic field B, then it will experience a force

A force basically has the ability to move things.

Conservation of momentum is a result of the conservation of energy. Energy at its most basic (not nuanced in the least) is how fast all the parts are moving.
//edit

Well I can follow most of this up until about here; (from wiki)

Harold G. "Sonny" White, who investigates field propulsion at Eagleworks, NASA's Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory, speculated that such resonant cavities may operate by creating a virtual plasma toroid that could realize net thrust using magnetohydrodynamic forces acting upon quantum vacuum fluctuations.[45] Likewise, the paper describing the Eagleworks tests refer to a possible interaction with a so-called "quantum vacuum virtual plasma".[11] This reference has been criticized by mathematical physicists John Baez and Sean M. Carroll because in the standard description of vacuum fluctuations, virtual particles do not behave as a plasma.[32][46][47] A recent paper shows that the emdrive's thrust can be predicted using a quantisation of inertia (MiHsC) [48]

Virtual particles . . .In basic ( BASIC ) optics (light is an EM wave) a virtual image is formed by the image location not being located on the same side (of a refracting lens) as the out going light.



In physics, a virtual particle is an explanatory conceptual entity that is found in mathematical calculations about quantum field theory. It refers to mathematical terms that have some appearance of representing particles inside a subatomic process such as a collision. Virtual particles, however, do not appear directly amongst the observable and detectable input and output quantities of those calculations, which refer only to actual, as distinct from virtual, particles. Virtual particle terms represent "particles" that are said to be 'off mass shell'. For example, they can progress backwards in time, can have apparent mass very different from their regular particle namesake's[dubious – discuss], and can travel faster than light. That is to say, when looked at individually, they appear to be able to violate basic laws of physics.


So when you read artefacts in the analysis this is part of what they are talking about. There are a lot of concepts used in the maths which are imaginary and useful for representing the process as a mathematical formula, like euler's a+bi where the imaginary portion "disappears."

Wild stuff, thanks for sharing.

-FBB
edit on 3-11-2015 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 11:27 PM
link   

originally posted by: sirChill
I didn't really see this in the technology area so I thought I would post it.

I've read about this thruster design in the past, and recent test earlier in the year suggested they wanted to verify results in a vacuum chamber to rule out other causes, but now it looks like even those test are leaving scientists to lean more towards this being the real deal. You can read about the engine HERE on wiki, or just google it up for yourself.

Here is an image from JSC Eagleworks showing the field surface distribution.



The main argument to the premise of this engine, is that initially it was thought to violate the law of conservation of motion. According to its creator Roger Shawyer though, who invented the EM Drive in the early 2000s, says: "To put it simply, electricity converts into microwaves within the cavity that push against the inside of the device, causing the thruster to accelerate in the opposite direction,". Long story short, he basically he thinks it's supported by the Lorentz force - F = q(E + νB).

And according to the Eagleworks vacuum tests it, it actually looks like that may be really be whats happening (but not confirmed yet). NASASpaceflight.com has really tried hard to debunk this, but so far, they haven't.


So now where talking about earth to mars transits of 90 days (for the record, a 1-2 megawatt power source is needed...hard but not impossible to get into space...but just to be devils advocate....).

Guess what? There is icing on this cake....

Reported on NASASpaceflights forum HERE it has been reported that lasers fired (taking measurements i'm assuming) into the resonant chamber that the laser light exceeded the speed of normal light at 300,000 kps...the "theory" is that inside the cavity a bubble of space time is getting warped (causing the appearance of faster than light...er light).

Well..to me this is just incredible. It wouldn't surprise me if the warping theory turns into something that isn't warping at all, but what an extra bonus to an already cool finding on the latest research.

Both NASA and institutes in China, and Germany having been researching this engine, so its not like this crack pot science.

What do you think ATS? Sounds great to me.



I don't think you are following along very well.

Eagleworks is NASA's technical research arm, and they have stated on Spaceflights forum, also a NASA entity ,that the drive does work, and has nothing to do with the Lorenz force.



One of the top engineers working on NASA’s controversial EM Drive thruster at the Eagleworks Laboratory at the Johnson Space Center in Texas has spoken publicly about the current state of the project. This is the first direct update in months, as NASA is keeping a very tight lid on the developments.

The latest news regarding the EM Drive, which produces a thrust seemingly from nowhere, comes from Paul March, one of the principal investigators on the EM Drive, and was published on the NASA Spaceflight forum. The post is in reply to an unpublished paper that claims the unaccounted thrust is generated by the Lorentz force between the EM Drive and the Earth’s magnetic field, something that March says his tests prove is not true.


That is actually a good thing, if the drive did intact rely on an interaction with the earths magnetic field, then it would be worthless as an interplanetary, once you leave a planet's magnetic field it would stop working.



“I will tell you that we first built and installed a 2nd generation, closed face magnetic damper that reduced the stray magnetic fields in the vacuum chamber by at least an order of magnitude and any Lorentz force interactions it could produce,” commented March in the post on October 28. “And yet the anomalous thrust signals remain...” he added.

March also claims that in the latest developments, thermal expansion of the thruster is taken into account to reduce all possible sources of error. But the anomalous thrust is still being observed, indicating a yet unexplained cause for it.


www.iflscience.com...


I'll admit I'm not up on my particle physics, but from what I've read on how the device operates, a magnetron generates microwaves, particles with mass, and they impinge on the small end of the cone.
The microwaves, behaving as particles , transfer energy to the cone, I'm not seeing how this is a violation of the laws conservation of momentum.



posted on Nov, 3 2015 @ 11:44 PM
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originally posted by: Baddogma
Does this mean that if we all turn our microwaves to power level 10, open the doors and turn them on all on at once, then we can move the Earth?

But really, that this hasn't been debunked (yet) is weird and neat... about time. It's usually anomalies, after all, that open up whole new vistas of knowledge.


Only if everybody parcipitates on one whole hemisphere on Earth. Level 8 will work.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 01:51 AM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

The microwaves, behaving as particles , transfer energy to the cone, I'm not seeing how this is a violation of the laws conservation of momentum.

Think a bit harder. Where do the microwaves get their momentum from?



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 07:02 AM
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originally posted by: Diablos

originally posted by: sirChill

Both NASA and institutes in China, and Germany having been researching this engine, so its not like this crack pot science.

What do you think ATS? Sounds great to me.



I wouldn't be so excited just yet. No matter how you slice or dice it, this machine violates momentum conservation. Much of fundamental physics known today is built on this principle, and if this machine works, practically all of it would have to be reworked. Not only that, but it would have huge consequences in the way we think about space and the homogeneity of space which follows from momentum conservation.

An FTL device would be a lot easier to incorporate and accept in mainstream physics (would violate only the WEC in GR) than this machine that breaks conservation of momentum. Right now, it's a lot more likely that these people are crackpots who don't know what they are doing than one of the cornerstone principles of physics being found to be violated surprisingly in attempts at building better propulsion systems but was missed at all the accelerators around the world where such violations of conservation laws would easily have shown up by now.


We really don't know that much about quantum fields and have yet to define gravity. What ever they are doing maybe interacting with quantum fields in a way we have yet to understand couldn't they?

Just because something happens outside of what we have so far figured out, does not mean we are wrong in our fundamental physics theories as they work in the environment and existence we know about. I know there must be better way to articulate that last).

This science may or may not have discovered a way to interact with physics and environments(realities/stuff?) we are not yet aware of yet.

Imagine your a runner and we have not yet discovered water. You run really fast but one day you accidently discover a lake and run into it where you are then slowed and stopped. The water/lake was unknown physics till you ran into it. Now if you need to get to other side of the lake your going to have to think outside the box you where in before you discovered water.

That is all and I am hopeful we have more stuff to learn and know about.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 07:27 AM
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I keep waiting for them to try it in a superconducting chamber. It'll be festive.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:17 AM
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a reply to: Bedlam

so you've got a thruster that can supposedly invoke virtual particles from the vacuum via proper tuning and resonance.

light that's going superluminal in the heart of the thruster.

and you want to make the resonating chamber a superconductor.

crazy bassplyr time:
the lights going superluminal because the device is digging a hole in the Dirac sea changing the density of space there to negative or something. in the return its generating virtual particles to kick it out of that hole and get back to homeostasis. change the resonator into a superconductor would turn the thing into turbo mode while extending that hole or bubble beyond the .......

.....you talking about possible mass reduction?

wait what if you rapidly rotate the superconductor at the same time? could that cause a decoupling? ....and some sweet chenkorev along the outside?

if so that thing wouldn't get to mars in 90 days it would get to the next solar system in 90 minutes.
edit on 4-11-2015 by BASSPLYR because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-11-2015 by BASSPLYR because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:37 AM
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originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: punkinworks10

The microwaves, behaving as particles , transfer energy to the cone, I'm not seeing how this is a violation of the laws conservation of momentum.

Think a bit harder. Where do the microwaves get their momentum from?

they have mass, albeit a very small mass, and they have a velocity, ergo they momentum.



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