How much power do Masons have?

Originally posted by Schrödinger

Originally posted by IslandMason

Originally posted by Schrödinger
reply to post by IslandMason

 

You have to change your tone, if you want any form of discourse with me.

I will not "change my tone" until you do the same. You offer no proof, only wild accusation. I am a Mason, and if you're going to lie about me, I WILL defend myself. I asked you to provide evidence. If being called out and asked to prove your assertions somehow hurts your feelings, too fricking bad.

Where in your extreme fantasy, have I addressed you?
I have never tried to nor do i intend on engaging you in discourse.
You are the one that keeps addressing me!

I owe you nothing!
I have not made a single wild accusation!

I simply claimed that secret societies (and the persons inhabiting them) hold more power than the average man.

My mental state is irrelevant in this discussion.

I"m just wondering what powers you really think we have? I'd like to know! lol

Masons have a lot of power.....They stack cement blocks all day long and pulling concrete isn't easy.

I can't say anything about the Masonic only that they have the power to educate because they paid for my education i went to the girls school in Dublin also went on brill holidays every year and had the best time of my life.

My dad was in the red and also the blue, i'm very proud of him and miss him very much as he was a very wise man.

Pity you can't turn the clock back and do it all over again woop woop for the Masonic.

reply to post by rickymouse


Nahh, we just use machines for that now! lol

reply to post by allthatjazz83


POWER!

reply to post by allthatjazz83


Boy, things have sure changed in the last six months They were laying block last fall by hand down the road. I did a lot of mason work, even own two compactors, a knuckle head bull float, power trowel, and enough tools to run a pretty good size crew. Don't even need them anymore...How things change.

reply to post by Schrödinger


Love to know what power you seem to know we have...... cause I sure as hell don't know of any. None of my family was high up in the ranks however i'm sure they knew some that were. We are human and we spill the beans when we least expect to and I"m sure if there was some "POWER" that we have, some of us would have heard internal rumors of it. The only thing we hear about is how people insist we have these powers over govt and whatever else not. Its really a laughing matter more then anything else. Great read for a boring day at work.!

Cheers

Originally posted by Schrödinger
reply to post by wiggy

 

...They have indeed power, and they are using it on a daily basis all over the world. To state otherwise is either deliberately misleading or at the worst outright lying.

In Denmark, most if not all prominent figures, in business and politics are tied to different lodges. Some are not directly free-masonic in their name, but have the same esoteric teachings and symbolism.

While business and politics are probably not discussed in the lodge, it surely is elsewhere.

So, despite being told otherwise, you state that Masons have power and it's used on a global scale, and if we, the Masons, tell you otherwise, somehow WE'RE lying... :rolleyes: Further, because some prominent people happen to be members of one organization or another, it must be shady.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
Keep derailing the thread!
You are doing exactly as expected.
Ridicule any criticism, then turn the thread into a circle-jerk of back padding masons!

A joke was made by a non-Mason, a few people ran with it for a couple of posts, it must therefore be a concerted Masonic effort.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

I see your point, I however do not see your ethical prerogative.
Stating that; "someone else started" is no argument at all.
Also there is over a page of you picking it up, and continuing the derailment.

I wrote quite a paper on it, I know you read it

The masonic influence and all that

Admonishment for having a sense of humour. But apparently more concerted Masonic deflection and derailment.

Originally posted by Schrödinger

Your point is illogical.
It is not about finding it humorous. It is simply about how you, Ksig, Network and Intrepid (pro-masonic moderator) are using bullying tactics on a forum, about secret societies, where we are to defy ignorance.

Stating that masons have no power, or to underplay the importance of power they have, is a fallacy or a lie.
Continuing to derail the thread with jokes, and aggressive bullying, internal ridiculing is only adding to my case.

Anyone can skim back and read the pages, its there for everyone to see.
Keep denying and shifting blame. It will not help.

Again, wastimg more off-topic screen space on admonishing those who made a joke. I MUST be a Masonic plot.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

You = the homogeneous mass of Freemasons on the board of ATS.

Ahhh, you've isolated the "they" of your nightmares.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
The free-masonic institutions have power and they use it.
Stating that this power is the same as the one the average man holds, is a lie.

I am not saying you are devil worshipers, I am not saying you are misusing this power collectevely. I am just stating that it is there.
And it is obvious that it is there. I have been in several lodges, I have several people in my network who are in lodges. They all hold positions of power, they all use their network. (Same as everyone else would do, difference being the size and magnitude of the network)

edit on 10-5-2013 by Schrödinger because: grammar

We've been over this. Masons, either individually or in any number have no more power than a similar number of Rotarians or Lions, or any other non-Mason. It is NOT a lie; it is fact. Assertions stating otherwise are paranoid fantasy. If you have HARD evidence to the contrary, please show it.

Rotarians and Lions and members of the Chamber of Commerce prefer to deal with people they know and trust. Masons are no different. That's not a crime, nor is it a conspiracy.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
reply to post by KSigMason

 

Have you heard the term; "the vocal minority"?

I do not care to speculate, postulate or document on how they misuse their power.
And if you read my statement, I never said anything about misusing it.
But *your* (Read: Masons) involvement in this thread, is an obvious example of how it can be misused.

Asking someone to self-medicate because they show emotional instability is a bullying tactic, yes!
(It is also a fallacy, but you already know that)

I have acknowledged that Lexus started. I have also made the argument that it was an invalid method of reasoning.

The top members of secret societies, that I had in mind was danish people in power. (I am not from the US)
But I know of several influential and powerful foreign ones as well !

I never said anything about them being evil.
I said explicitly:

I am not saying you are devil worshipers, I am not saying you are misusing this power collectevely. I am just stating that it is there.

What I am stating; "is there", is their power.

To paraphrase: You don't care to offer proof; everyone should just take your word for it that Masons wield more power than anyone.

Because certain influential people happen to be Masons, or members of a "similar" organization, it's apparently justification for your (as yet unproven) "Masons have more power than anyone" theory.

Other posts are recent enough that I don't think I need to repost them, but the gist is this:

You ask us to believe that you've been in multiple Lodges, which is impossible, unless you're a Mason yourself.

I and others have repeatedly said that Masons do NOT, in fact, hold any more power than non-Masons. We've told you that though some people who are members of the Lions Club, Masons, or Rotary may have risen to positions of power, it was not, in all likelihood, due to membership in ANY organization.

YOU cling to your assertion that we do have power and use it every day. I say we don't. I'll just bet that if KSig or Augustus or any other Mason chimes in to agree with what I've written, then that'll be be proof to you not of many people agreeing on the truth, but of a Masonic conspiracy...

reply to post by Schrödinger

So what if we're vocal? You said "mass" which implies quantity.

Do you believe that we should come here and be bulldozed? Are you inferring we shouldn't be vocal?

I do not care to speculate, postulate or document on how they misuse their power.

So you don't have the proof, but you're going to make the statement anyway. Isn't that reckless and unethical?

And if you read my statement, I never said anything about misusing it.

Actually you did, you just said we are not collectively misusing power, but that it still happens in the Masons. I'd agree there are some Masons who have done wrong, but its not a symptom of the fraternity nor is it something that "higher ups" do. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes, but my point was that in the numbers game I could probably show many more non-Masons guilty of crimes and corruption than you could Masons; like I said, simple numbers.

But *your* (Read: Masons) involvement in this thread, is an obvious example of how it can be misused.

So now defending the Fraternity on the forum is not only bullying, but a misuse of power?

I have acknowledged that Lexus started. I have also made the argument that it was an invalid method of reasoning.

You take things way too seriously. So someone made a joke, who cares? If you don't like a post then report them to the Mods.

The top members of secret societies, that I had in mind was danish people in power.

So now the top members are Danish? Or just the top in your area?

I never said anything about them being evil.

If you notice, I was addressing NuclearPaul in regards to leaders being evil.

reply to post by allthatjazz83

I've always been curious myself.

I guess i can just come out and say WE HAVE POWER! MORE POWER THEN YOU CAN EVER IMAGINE... Will that satisfy? Again, would love to know specifically the power you think we have. If I can use it to make my mortgage disappear that would be great! lol

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


As I said there are always benefits to do voluntary work, it can go from tax breaks, recognition, reinforcing the curriculum to several non-material personal gains. It continues to be a type of trade that is done ultimately in self interest.

In the particular case you presented a soup kitchen, is considered a charity, the problem with charities is that there is no obligations, including being fair and consistent in treatment, and often creates (and depends on ) a relation of dependency.

reply to post by KSigMason


Howdy K-Sig.
Gonna answer your questions 1 by 1.
I said mass, as in quantity not quality... What is it you are trying to refute?

You should know by now my stance on self-defense. I do not believe you should roll over, I do believe you should defend yourself from unjust or untrue allegations.
You should be vocal, but you should also respect the discourse.
You clearly did not in this thread.

Proof? Mathematical? Jurisprudence?
There is no such thing as de facto proof, and you know it.
I never made the claim that they where misusing their power. You made that claim, after interpreting my reply. Didn't mention it, I even said that there was no collective misuse of power, as far as I was aware.
Since we are all humans, and even masons make mistakes, stating that no mason would misuse their power would be a lie.
But since it was a general statement, I do not have to back it up with proof nor evidence. The philosophical truth stands for it self, you can deny it all you want, but it doesn't make it less true.

I am not even interested in talking about masons who did wrong.
You are insisting on making me do this!
I was talking in general about humans and specifically about you, network and augustus.
You can postulate that masons are less represented in the criminal statistics, I would have to see some concrete statistics on that, and that would still not be proof of anything. Only that they are convicted less, not that they actually commit less crimes.

Defending yourself is not a misuse of power. Ridiculing, bullying, shifting blame and the constant use of; tu quoque IS.

I do not take things to seriously.
(Hint; read the replies from your friend, islandmason)
And I do not feel like reporting anyone.
I respect you, network and augustus, and when I see you behave in a inappropriate manner, I address you directly.
Yes Luxus made a joke, it was perhaps even funny, I don't know, I don't care.
However you surely did pick the ball up fast, and continued to play with it for over 1 page.
Thereby "spamming" any serious comments on the topic, out of sight.
(Since some where a bit anti-secret soceties in nature, and you yourself are the members of a secret society, you should just have kept your noses out, you have a clear conflict of interest on this subject.)

Of course I speak from a danish perspective. We have gone over this before.
I am from Denmark, I am not from the States, I have never been to the states. Therefore speaking generally about the demographics over there would at best be hearsay and statistics.
I need to start where I live, and yes many if not most people in power here are in a secret society and they surely all have been knighted by the Queen. That is the way it is over here.
Since i live in the capitol of Denmark i.e. Copenhagen it is mainly people in my area. But that is still 30% of the entire population in my small country. (And NO I am not saying that the US or any other international or national (except the danish that I specifically mention) secret society is being run by Danes.)

No I did not see you chose to address someone else in the very bottom of your reply.

reply to post by Schrödinger

You said mass as in quantity and I'm saying you have no footing to stand on as there are so few of us. Yes, the few of us are vocal, but you act as if the majority of people on this board are Masons...which is not the case. I'd bet that the Masons on ATS are a fraction of a percentage of the members registered on ATS.

I was talking in general about humans and specifically about you, network and augustus.

And the evidence of my bullying was laughable.

And I do not feel like reporting anyone.

Then you don't really have any reason to whine about our posts.

I need to start where I live, and yes many if not most people in power here are in a secret society and they surely all have been knighted by the Queen. That is the way it is over here.

My Lodge's education officer has been asked to do his next presentation on Danish Freemasonry.

(And NO I am not saying that the US or any other international or national (except the danish that I specifically mention) secret society is being run by Danes.)

Gotcha. Thank you for the clarification.

reply to post by Schrödinger


We actually do have a good bit of power. We can pull our resources and take on massive projects of fund raising and charity that the single person could never do. We can gather how ever many you need at just about any time for a funeral, or a degree. We have the luxury of knowing that any town in most any country we could travel to, we have a trusted friend there.

We don't hold the power to do anything other than to follow our purpose. If we were a war machine, then yes, you should fear us, but since we are an organization hell bent on making men and communities better, you can skip the fear part. (IMHO)

reply to post by network dude


Where I think the misunderstanding lies is in the definition of power.

From a philosophical perspective I tend to agree with you.
Masons have no more power than any ordinary man, because a mason is just that; an ordinary man.

However from a practical perspective, and taking empirical and historical evidence into account.
Organisations have more power than the sum of its parts.
Just as any congregation working towards a common goal has.

Originally posted by Panic2k11
As I said there are always benefits to do voluntary work, it can go from tax breaks, recognition, reinforcing the curriculum to several non-material personal gains.

You failed to list how someone controls the 'power' when performing this act. Additionally, concessions such as tax breaks are minimal and there are much better ways to minimize ones taxes than doing charity work.

What is the perceived recognition and by who? How is a 'curriculum' reinforced? What are the material personal gains of donating ones time?

It continues to be a type of trade that is done ultimately in self interest.

Can you outline who when people participate in a charitable event how they are serving their own self interest? To me this is an oxymoron.

In the particular case you presented a soup kitchen, is considered a charity, the problem with charities is that there is no obligations, including being fair and consistent in treatment, and often creates (and depends on ) a relation of dependency.

It is obvious you have little to no experience participating in such an event. When individuals come to a soup kitchen for assistance they are given food, all of them. How does your cynical comment rationalize that they come hungry and leave sated?

And of course there is no 'obligation' for people to participate, but I would argue that we all have a moral obligation to help others if it is within our powers to do so.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
Yes Luxus made a joke, it was perhaps even funny, I don't know, I don't care.

There was no 'perhaps', Luxus was funny.

However you surely did pick the ball up fast, and continued to play with it for over 1 page.

Why do you feel the need to exagerate?

Luxus made the initial comment and there were 4 (FOUR) comments made in reposnse to his.
There are twenty posts per page. Last time I checked four does not equal twenty.

Count them yourself and tell me if I am wrong.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Humor is subjective, and irrelevant. This is not a site for humor, this is a site for discourse.

I did exaggerate, I will give you that.
But you should know why i overreacted.

I have seen this tactics used by *you* for over 10 years on this site.
And it is really like waving a red cloth in front of me.
Combine that with the actual respect i have for you and network dude.
I just get emotionally unstable when you cross the fine line.
Because I do hold you to higher standards.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
Humor is subjective, and irrelevant. This is not a site for humor, this is a site for discourse.

I disagree. Humor is an important tool in any discourse. I find a person who cannot see humor in things to be banal and dull. And to be perfectly frank, other posters obviously found the comments to be funny so it would appear that there is room for humor on this site.

We are not curing cancer for Pete's sake and it is okay to laugh.

I did exaggerate, I will give you that.
But you should know why i overreacted.

To accuse other members of acting inappropriately and then doing so youself is the height of hypocrisy. Behave in the same manner in which you expect of others.

I have seen this tactics used by *you* for over 10 years on this site.
And it is really like waving a red cloth in front of me.
Combine that with the actual respect i have for you and network dude.
I just get emotionally unstable when you cross the fine line.
Because I do hold you to higher standards.

I appreciate the fact that you have some personal esteem for network, myself and others but to become 'emotionally unstable' over a few humorous comments is a bit dramatic, no? I do not think I have ever spoken to you with anything other than courtesy and honesty and I have never personally ridiculed or bullied you in anyway.