Proof a Living Wage is Possible

a reply to: Drinking

Something we can agree on.

As far as the poster goes above you, profit margins create jobs. A successful company expands and hires more people. A more successful company (read: more profits) has opportunities to create even more jobs.

Will all of these jobs be 50k+? Of course not. Will SOME? Most likely. Will some be 6 figures? Perhaps. Could some be 7 or 8 or 9 figures? Maybe. Will some be minimum wage? Maybe. The fact is that jobs were created. Opportunities were created.

Joe Blow off the street who opens a business and barely pays the rent each month and can hardly keep the lights on in his store because his profit margins are so narrow isn't creating more jobs. He's at risk of reducing jobs. If he had a higher profit margin he may open more stores, which further increases his profits (and wealth), which could lead to more stores, or larger stores.

It isn't greed. It's business sense. Too bad most people lack an ounce of it.

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

Disposable income, which most workers don't have anymore, creates demand.

Which creates jobs, wealth has never created a single job period, not one ever.

Demand created every job mankind has ever created, wealth is a byproduct of demand and jobs.

Not its cause.

Wealth creates jobs. It has a million times over and will continue to do so.

Conversely, a lack of wealth reduces available jobs, even if demand persists. No one is going to make X product that is in high demand unless they can make a profit from it.

And without disposable income to buy products that are in demand wealth can't be created.

Once again, most workers no longer have disposable income, thus can't purchase no matter the demand.

Or do you think a thousand billionaires ate the ones buying most of the goods and services which create all the jobs?

No they aren't.

They buy little, they already have everything thing.

Their money doesn't fuel the economy.

They just take and give back nothing.

The workers give it all back, because it takes it all just to live.

The workers fuel this economy, not the rich.

a reply to: stolencar18

No it's greed, as the poster above me said, no disposable income equals no buying power, there's a balance to be maintained and we've lost that balance completely and it's only getting worse.

a reply to: Drinking

Disposable income doesn't create demand. A person who lives at the limits of their income with no disposable income has still created a demand for things (food, housing, power, fuel, etc). Disposable income can increase that.

The statement that wealthy people don't buy much is silly. Personally, I'd bet wealthy people spend more than the next 50 people just trying to keep up appearances and having the latest and greatest.

But...your statements ignore one thing. HOW did they get wealthy? Sure, some inherited it or won a bunch of money, but most got wealthy through work and expanding business ventures (which creates jobs). If they weren't there creating jobs for us we'd be more screwed.

Look at the oil and gas industry as an example (save your industry hatred and just look at the concept). CEO's or owners of the larger oil companies make a fortune. Their job is to ensure the business succeeds. A successful oil company employs tens of thousands of people doing various jobs. In turn, these people create tens of thousands of more jobs. They travel, they need hotels, they need someone to build their trucks, their homes, run the restaurants they eat at while away from home, etc. These restaurants employ several people, and indirectly they help create jobs at food distribution warehouses, trucking companies, farms, factories, etc. Thousands and thousands of spinoff jobs created by the billionaires at the top that drive a business to success. That's one industry example.

So, while the billionaire sits at home in his mansion living a lifestyle the rest of us can't imagine, you have to wonder if your job is somehow a spinoff of his work.

Work at a car factory? Good thing these people create a demands for capable work vehicles.
Work at a local pub or restaurant? How many people come in and spend their money their while away from home?
Work at a gas station? If another industry that was driven by a billionaire suddenly went belly up and your station suddenly had 50% less business do you think that would affect how many jobs are available?

Everyone looks at the "evil" billionaire and his fortune and ignores the billions of dollars of jobs he creates. That's jealousy. THAT'S greed. When all people want is to is hate on the top level of income earners without seeing the positive they create that's pure blind jealousy and greed.

a reply to: Puppylove

SO what is your position? That if we tell rich people they can't be any richer than X amount that will create more jobs?

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

Disposable income, which most workers don't have anymore, creates demand.

Which creates jobs, wealth has never created a single job period, not one ever.

Demand created every job mankind has ever created, wealth is a byproduct of demand and jobs.

Not its cause.

Wealth creates jobs. It has a million times over and will continue to do so.

Conversely, a lack of wealth reduces available jobs, even if demand persists. No one is going to make X product that is in high demand unless they can make a profit from it.

And without disposable income to buy products that are in demand wealth can't be created.

Once again, most workers no longer have disposable income, thus can't purchase no matter the demand.

Or do you think a thousand billionaires ate the ones buying most of the goods and services which create all the jobs?

No they aren't.

They buy little, they already have everything thing.

Their money doesn't fuel the economy.

They just take and give back nothing.

The workers give it all back, because it takes it all just to live.

The workers fuel this economy, not the rich.

Their income most certainly benefits the economy. They are spending their money which creates jobs. Do you seriously think the wealthy just sit around and burn their money like Scrooge McDuck? They purchase cars, houses, boats, travel, etc. Their expenditures create many jobs for the businesses that are selling them stuff.

Again, this doesn't even take into account the money they give away voluntarily.

Taking money from person A so person B can spend it is what is being advocated.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: stolencar18

No it's greed, as the poster above me said, no disposable income equals no buying power, there's a balance to be maintained and we've lost that balance completely and it's only getting worse.

This is how I see it!

I'm all for capitalism, when the environment it was designed for exists.

It no longer does.

As you stated so well, the balance has been changed.

Which is its biggest flaw.

It assumes a closed system, where tension of millions of cheap laborers won't flood the market, but they have.

It assumes, equal trade, which doesn't exist anymore.

It assumes certain checks and balances of the financial sector, which are gone.

Now it is nothing but a greed feeding tool for very few to suck the life out of the very many, for no other reason than more, even though they have more than enough.

Even as the millions of Walmart employees sick off the tax payers teet just to be able to live so they can go back to work, so a few Walton's can have more each, each year than all their hourly employees combined.... It is sick, it is a mental illness, it should be criminal.

If your company makes a billion in profit, it should be criminal for all involved to have a single worker on the dole.

In effect, the tax payers give Walmart all that welfare money every year.

Because nobody would even work at Walmart if they couldn't live by doing so.

More needs to come out of Walmart's pockets for their workers.

Less should be coming out of the taxpayers.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

Disposable income, which most workers don't have anymore, creates demand.

Which creates jobs, wealth has never created a single job period, not one ever.

Demand created every job mankind has ever created, wealth is a byproduct of demand and jobs.

Not its cause.

Wealth creates jobs. It has a million times over and will continue to do so.

Conversely, a lack of wealth reduces available jobs, even if demand persists. No one is going to make X product that is in high demand unless they can make a profit from it.

And without disposable income to buy products that are in demand wealth can't be created.

Once again, most workers no longer have disposable income, thus can't purchase no matter the demand.

Or do you think a thousand billionaires ate the ones buying most of the goods and services which create all the jobs?

No they aren't.

They buy little, they already have everything thing.

Their money doesn't fuel the economy.

They just take and give back nothing.

The workers give it all back, because it takes it all just to live.

The workers fuel this economy, not the rich.

Their income most certainly benefits the economy. They are spending their money which creates jobs. Do you seriously think the wealthy just sit around and burn their money like Scrooge McDuck? They purchase cars, houses, boats, travel, etc. Their expenditures create many jobs for the businesses that are selling them stuff.

Again, this doesn't even take into account the money they give away voluntarily.

Taking money from person A so person B can spend it is what is being advocated.

No most of their money goes straight into investment portfolios.

Buying bonds does not create jobs.

Buying stocks does not create jobs.

Unless you mean on wallstreet.

Most of the riches money never touches main street.

They hoard it, they don't spend it.

You stimulate an economy, the money in it must change hands.

" the Spice must flow? "

When the middle and lower classes have a majority of the money this happens.

When it is concentrated in the hands of a few rich it doesn't.

This retards growth, and shrinks revenue across the board.

Causing less goods and services to be purchased, causing downsizing and lower wages and less highering.

Which only causes the cycle to continue, as the rich just keep hoarding.

Have you not noticed that the vast majority are poorer and the rich are just rich by factors in the last 20 years?

a reply to: Drinking

Buying stocks and bonds certainly creates jobs. I suggest you learn how the stock market works and how companies are affected by stock price, stock demand, bonds, etc.

More and more I feel as if people hate wealth because they simply don't understand wealth or how it benefits more than just wealthy people.

At the simplest levels, companies that sell luxury goods like high end cars wouldn't exist (and neither would their thousands or tens of thousands of jobs). At more complex levels, the number of jobs directly or indirectly created by these millionaires is something most people don't want to admit.

I bet if you took a list of every millionaire in North America you could directly or indirectly tie every single job to one of them. Conversely, I challenge you to find a single job that has not been directly or indirectly created or supported by a millionaire/billionaire.

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

Disposable income, which most workers don't have anymore, creates demand.

Which creates jobs, wealth has never created a single job period, not one ever.

Demand created every job mankind has ever created, wealth is a byproduct of demand and jobs.

Not its cause.

Wealth creates jobs. It has a million times over and will continue to do so.

Conversely, a lack of wealth reduces available jobs, even if demand persists. No one is going to make X product that is in high demand unless they can make a profit from it.

And without disposable income to buy products that are in demand wealth can't be created.

Once again, most workers no longer have disposable income, thus can't purchase no matter the demand.

Or do you think a thousand billionaires ate the ones buying most of the goods and services which create all the jobs?

No they aren't.

They buy little, they already have everything thing.

Their money doesn't fuel the economy.

They just take and give back nothing.

The workers give it all back, because it takes it all just to live.

The workers fuel this economy, not the rich.

Their income most certainly benefits the economy. They are spending their money which creates jobs. Do you seriously think the wealthy just sit around and burn their money like Scrooge McDuck? They purchase cars, houses, boats, travel, etc. Their expenditures create many jobs for the businesses that are selling them stuff.

Again, this doesn't even take into account the money they give away voluntarily.

Taking money from person A so person B can spend it is what is being advocated.

No most of their money goes straight into investment portfolios.

Buying bonds does not create jobs.

Buying stocks does not create jobs.

Unless you mean on wallstreet.

Most of the riches money never touches main street.

They hoard it, they don't spend it.

You stimulate an economy, the money in it must change hands.

" the Spice must flow? "

When the middle and lower classes have a majority of the money this happens.

When it is concentrated in the hands of a few rich it doesn't.

This retards growth, and shrinks revenue across the board.

Causing less goods and services to be purchased, causing downsizing and lower wages and less highering.

Which only causes the cycle to continue, as the rich just keep hoarding.

Have you not noticed that the vast majority are poorer and the rich are just rich by factors in the last 20 years?

So working on Wall Street isn't a job now? Do you have any idea how many indirect jobs get created from Wall Street? Hotels, restaurants, cars, real estate, construction, IT, fashion, etc. The entire city of NYC waits every year around xmas to hear how bonus season will look for the Wall Street bankers as entire industries depend on them spending the money they've earned. Wall Street employs hundreds of thousands of employees across many different business functions.

Bonds to finance government isn't beneficial?

You truly are clueless.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

Disposable income, which most workers don't have anymore, creates demand.

Which creates jobs, wealth has never created a single job period, not one ever.

Demand created every job mankind has ever created, wealth is a byproduct of demand and jobs.

Not its cause.

Wealth creates jobs. It has a million times over and will continue to do so.

Conversely, a lack of wealth reduces available jobs, even if demand persists. No one is going to make X product that is in high demand unless they can make a profit from it.

And without disposable income to buy products that are in demand wealth can't be created.

Once again, most workers no longer have disposable income, thus can't purchase no matter the demand.

Or do you think a thousand billionaires ate the ones buying most of the goods and services which create all the jobs?

No they aren't.

They buy little, they already have everything thing.

Their money doesn't fuel the economy.

They just take and give back nothing.

The workers give it all back, because it takes it all just to live.

The workers fuel this economy, not the rich.

Their income most certainly benefits the economy. They are spending their money which creates jobs. Do you seriously think the wealthy just sit around and burn their money like Scrooge McDuck? They purchase cars, houses, boats, travel, etc. Their expenditures create many jobs for the businesses that are selling them stuff.

Again, this doesn't even take into account the money they give away voluntarily.

Taking money from person A so person B can spend it is what is being advocated.

No most of their money goes straight into investment portfolios.

Buying bonds does not create jobs.

Buying stocks does not create jobs.

Unless you mean on wallstreet.

Most of the riches money never touches main street.

They hoard it, they don't spend it.

You stimulate an economy, the money in it must change hands.

" the Spice must flow? "

When the middle and lower classes have a majority of the money this happens.

When it is concentrated in the hands of a few rich it doesn't.

This retards growth, and shrinks revenue across the board.

Causing less goods and services to be purchased, causing downsizing and lower wages and less highering.

Which only causes the cycle to continue, as the rich just keep hoarding.

Have you not noticed that the vast majority are poorer and the rich are just rich by factors in the last 20 years?

So working on Wall Street isn't a job now? Do you have any idea how many indirect jobs get created from Wall Street? Hotels, restaurants, cars, real estate, construction, IT, fashion, etc. The entire city of NYC waits every year around xmas to hear how bonus season will look for the Wall Street bankers as entire industries depend on them spending the money they've earned. Wall Street employs hundreds of thousands of employees across many different business functions.

Bonds to finance government isn't beneficial?

You truly are clueless.

Hundreds of thousands of jobs, beneficial.....

Lol, nothing that takes place on wallstreet benefits anyone but the elite.

How many millions of regular folks lost their entire retirement funds in 08?

Oh but so a hundred thousand pos types can steal money they don't deserve from those who actually sweated and earned it is OK with you.....

But you know robbing the poor and paying the rich isn't the problem.

It is the poor folks fault for not being rich enough to not get raped right?

You do understand without the poor it is impossible to have the rich right.

Without the rich, there would be much less poor.

Because most folks have a conscience, the do not.

That is why they can aquire billions, if others have to starve and die along the way who cares, at least they accumulated more than they could use so others couldn't even survive before they died.

WTF kind of attitude is that.

Right now, if I took half from the top 100 I could give every homeless person in the country a car a place to stay and hope.

But I mean half of thousands of times more than anyone could ever need is too much to ask.

What good does it do to starve out most of the population so a few can have more than 100 generations of their offspring can use?

No good period!

It does a lot of harm though, to a lot of people.

I'm not talking socialist bs.

I'm just talking sanity.

There is no reason other than greed, that any person needs or deserves a billion dollars.

There is no way to justify it.

Once they had a few hundred million, they should have dumped more of it back into those making the money enmass.

They don't because the fact millions go hungry makes them happy, they only exist to cause suffering.

When they could stop it any time they choose to.

No they like it, it makes them feel good to look down on regular folks.

The same folks that even make human civilization possible.

The rich don't do this.

The guy at the tire store does, the guy at the grocery store does, the semi driver does.

The rich don't little but take.

a reply to: Drinking

Well said. Here are the problems as I see them.

Many people don't understand the economy.

Many people have no idea what a billion dollars is.

Many people are so afraid of the "S" word even if they would benefit they would vote against it, because they have no idea what democratic socialism means.

Many people are clueless to the real job situation and still think everyone is just looking to get something for nothing.

Many people think the poor are the reason for poverty.

The only way to convince many that change would benefit them would be through a majority vote that forced these policies on them. Unitl they actually see it they will never believe it or even try to understand it.

originally posted by: Isurrender73

The only way to convince many that change would benefit them would be through a majority vote that forced these policies on them. Unitl they actually see it they will never believe it or even try to understand it.

If it is a majority vote, then it would only be forced on the minority. But I see the minority forcing this on the majority. And yes, you'll have a fight on your hands because there would be many who don't want your socialist utopia.

I also must say, socialism is unconstitutional.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Isurrender73

The only way to convince many that change would benefit them would be through a majority vote that forced these policies on them. Unitl they actually see it they will never believe it or even try to understand it.

If it is a majority vote, then it would only be forced on the minority. But I see the minority forcing this on the majority. And yes, you'll have a fight on your hands because there would be many who don't want your socialist utopia.

I would say with numbers like these you may think you are in the majority but I would disagree. These numbers are why more and more are willing to embrace a more socialist ideology, and why we will likely see the democrats take office again.

-If you make more than $30,000, you earn more than 53.2% of Americans.

-If you make more than $50,000, you earn more than 73.4% of Americans.

The police, firefighters, public roads, local and national parks, public education, military, social security, and disability are all "Socialist Programs".

I'm pretty sure they are not constitutionally illegal.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Why do you want to promote class warfare? Why do you care if people are successful?

As for the constitutional aspect?

The Constitution limits government, socialism expands it.

a reply to: Isurrender73

I am, first and foremost, the kind of person who bristles at the notion of the term "living wage".

That said...3 things could make the 'living wage" thing possible:

- A global war like WWII that destroys the manufacturing infrastructure of the rest of the industrialized world.
- Decrease in the amount of cash push upwards by restoring in house positions that have either been outsourced, automated, and made obsolete
- Removal of the welfare class as a thing. No problem with funding indigent care. Major problem funding people who find it cheaper to stay home than pay day care. Which I totally get...but that needs to be stopped (among several other elements that make up the welfare class). Add to this the war machine that creates a fairly hefty benefit burden for injured vets.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: ketsuko

I love the "Who are you..." argument. Yes let's let the wealth gap grow unchecked because well, who is anyone to be upset about it. No one is important enough to dare complain, so just accept it and keep your mouth shut.

I say YES... let's let the wealth gap grow unchecked because that leads to revolution and civil uprisings. Those are much more civilized approaches to solving this problem than instituting a wage cap.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Drinking

Well said. Here are the problems as I see them.

Many people don't understand the economy.

Many people have no idea what a billion dollars is.

Many people are so afraid of the "S" word even if they would benefit they would vote against it, because they have no idea what democratic socialism means.

Many people are clueless to the real job situation and still think everyone is just looking to get something for nothing.

Many people think the poor are the reason for poverty.

The only way to convince many that change would benefit them would be through a majority vote that forced these policies on them. Unitl they actually see it they will never believe it or even try to understand it.

I am ironically enough, fully against socialism.

I don't think it is the answer.

But it can't be much worse than what we see now, even if we got the NK Cuba soviet union version of it.

Most of the population in poverty, a small cabal of oligarchs get to have everything....

Actually, I can barely tell a difference between the two.

We aren't that bad off yet, but wait one decade.

After the next boom/bust cycle finishes destroying America.....

Somthing must be done, or very bad things will begin happening.

People won't just watch their kids starve.

They will steal and kill when working can't feed them.

All the " capitalism always works best" types are ignoring reality.

No NAFTA, closed border.... Sure it does in this situation.

Our current situation... Not at all.

They act like education or training can educate people into jobs that don't exist.

They are blind to reality obviously.

Education and training does not make jobs.

Demand does.

As the majority have less money by the day, they purchase less.

Oh but by some of their versions of reality, the rich will just keep tire barn open vying tires once every few years.

Or buy enough groceries to keep all the local stores open.

Oh but the money wall street makes us good for mainstreet.

Which is why wall street recovered a long time ago to record margins but mainstreet has felt none of it..

They are a handful of lucky folks that the system worked for because of luck.

They are not smarter, they have not worked harder.

They just got lucky, like hitting the genetic lottery and being a athlete.

But somehow they deserve what they have so much that in spite of the fact smarter harder working folks are starving does not even register to them.

No it is a magic world, the smartest and hardest working always make it to the top.....

Which is completely stupid as a concept, because that is obviously not true.

The biggest POS is the guy that makes it to the top.

Intelligence and work ethic mean squat.

Just be the biggest POS you can, steal from everyone, always throw everyone else under the bus, screw everyone you meet over.... That is the true path to success.

It is #ing stupid!!!!

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Isurrender73

The only way to convince many that change would benefit them would be through a majority vote that forced these policies on them. Unitl they actually see it they will never believe it or even try to understand it.

If it is a majority vote, then it would only be forced on the minority. But I see the minority forcing this on the majority. And yes, you'll have a fight on your hands because there would be many who don't want your socialist utopia.

I don't want socialism.

But I didn't want NAFTA or open borders either, because I can count.

As it stands now, this system is not working for the vast majority, meaning, it is the problem.

It isn't the majority of people are the problem.

Most of this country is very hard working.

What has it got them?

In my vast and diverse work experience.

It is about 1 out of 15-20 people that are dumb and or lazy and deserve to be in poverty.

That is about 5-7% of the population.

When less than 1/3 of the population actually makes a good living.

" but McDonalds employees.. "

Ya work all week to be homeless and hungry, see how motivated that makes you.

" move up"

Into what?

There is nothing to move into.

" these jobs are meant to be entry level"

Almost 2/3 of the jobs in this country are entry level?

That makes no sense at all.

" they just didn't make the right choices"

Yes because only perfect people who never make a single mistake deserve not to starve right?

How can you defend the undefendable?

I'm no socialist.

But somthing must be done, or we will be at 3rd world status for most of the population in less than a generation.

What should we do, just do nothing and watch as 2/3 and rising of the population suffer, so a few pieces of crap can live like gods?

# that, that is #ing stupid.

I'm just trying to find a solution.

You are just entrenched because the system worked for you.

You fear losing what you have.

Fear not, I don't want to take what you have.

But wait until I can't feed my kids even with 2 full time jobs.

Not only will the majority take what you have, you couldn't stop them if you wanted.

Shear volume....

I don't want it to come to this, because I'm in the boat that gets their stuff taken.

Somthing must be done.

Either raising the MW just to appease the poor all the while making more poor that must be again given a bone to keep them from rioting.

Or making the ultra rich stop raping the working class.

There is no scenario where the elite won't lose.

They can lose some now, or all including their lives later.

Look at human history, sure police state brutality will keep them in check for a time.... But what happens when that no longer works?

Why not just avoid it all and find a solution?

The rich can pay more.

The poor can't live on much less.

The last time income inequality was this bad in the West..


" let them eat cake"

How did that turn out for Mary?