It's time to wake up!

a reply to: UniFinity

Yes there are a lot of users who change their beliefs, and many tend to make their experiences into their new religion. Many people can have transformative experiences and believe that it was a call from Jesus or what have you.
www.youtube.com...
Sam Harris explains that point here.

When talking to athiests, I would do them justice and explain in more detail, consciousness and it's relation to reality using straightforward logic. From that point, OBE's can become more useful because you sort of have an idea of what you're up against.

a reply to: Andy1144

aha, super duper point again. This should be a mandatory thing, for such people or at least for the one who is very close minded. But I have heard that the trip varies a LOT and it shows you exactly what you need to move on from your current stage so it seems nature can take care of us even when we are tripping hehe

The main problem is with relaxation, I would imagine. You must not swim against the current, but just float above it and allow it to take you away...and this could be very dangerous if a person does not want to let go or even worse - allow fear of the unknown to overcome you!

I think where there are retreats for ayahuasca, they have a certain process of explaining things and even a spiritual shaman or guide just in case anyone needs help or gets lost.

Maybe one day there will be opportunity to experience this...

Have you tried this or anything similar, if so what are your thoughts?

a reply to: UniFinity

I haven't tried anything too drastic, but small things like, weed or mostly binural beats. But remember, drugs can become a goal to reach for enlightenment . You don't need many OBE's to awaken, but they can help.

a reply to: Andy1144

yes, it is a very slippery slope hehe

I have tried mushrooms and l s d in dark room and with deep meditation and nice music a few times and it was an amazing mind blowing stuff!
For me it was just like sneak peak of what is to come whit natural meditation soon but not yet hehe. So it was a great motivator for me in a way

But other than weed I use nothing else, no cigarettes or alcohol or even coffee. Even weed will have to go very soon. My urge to have a clean body is getting stronger every day. So my eating changed with that also.
I don't know this happens naturally without any thinking, desires are just flowing away...

originally posted by: UniFinity
yes, it talks about that and many other things. If you would take your time to really read and contemplated all that is written and what they are pointing to. you would understand more in depth the real hidden meaning of your own words. But hey, if you think that you got it figured out, than more power to you.

Yes, I understand what they are saying. I don't agree with them though.

All I am writing about is various experiences which are all different from person to person and nothing else and how to get to them.

I'm writing about the difference in what you say and what those who you consider teachers say.

There is only the now. Everything else is illusion. There are no OBEs, there is no useful tool, there is no lesson that needs to be learned, this reality is an illusion so there is no point in understanding it.

There is nothing that needs to be gotten to. All that is, is here now.

dp

a reply to: daskakik

What you say is part of the picture for me, but what is the real meaning behind now and here? What is this illusion made of? What or who is my real self? dream stuff? nothingness? emptiness? that is another blind guess and not real experience.

for me this rhetoric is not the whole point and old masters, gurus, sufies, yogis and many more alike were and are teaching that also. Although this knowledge is the essence of the real nature of reality, but intellectual understanding is just imagination for me at least.

This here and now which you explained is for instance the first step in mahamudra Tibetan Buddhism (one of the purest schools with original teachings) and after you feel here and now or complete silence in meditation, your doors are starting to open to other levels of learnings.

Chakra or prana becomes very noticeable and felt at that stage of meditation with various visions or OBE trips, where you work out your blockages until you clean whole body: emotionally, mentally, physically, energetically. And then sushumna channel can become open for kundalini energy to rise...and so on...many many great stuff to learn, for true devotee!

But all this is just part of the process which must be done with for final self-realization to even come near you. That is why some are searching for spiritual perfection their whole or even more lives. This takes a HUGE amount of effort and not just simple intellectual understanding.

a reply to: UniFinity

Sounds like you are interjecting a lot of what you desire into their teachings.

what is the real meaning behind now and here?

It's their rehtoric.

To me their is no meaning behind now and here. If now and here means hugging someone you love then that is what it is. If it means you touching a hot pan and getting burned then that is what it is.

originally posted by: UniFinity

But all this is just part of the process which must be done with for final self-realization to even come near you. That is why some are searching for spiritual perfection their whole or even more lives. This takes a HUGE amount of effort and not just simple intellectual understanding.

The one making the effort is what? Seeking - seeking for something.
Nothing has to be done for the self to be just as it is - complete.
All that doing is in the hope of finding some thing. What is, is all there is, including seeking for something that isn't!

a reply to: daskakik

well it may seem that way, but as I said I have no expectation and thought in deep meditation so how come, there is desire??

And various stages of samadhi and bliss that comes with it are very well documented so this is nothing new...all old schools are teaching the same thing but today everyone likes short cuts but there are no sort cuts here, just correct effort and then understanding and then being!
Until now I have had a two short samadhi experiences and they are mind blowing even if only for short time which lasted...this cannot be understood OR even explained in words but must be experienced!

google samadhi and explore if interested...but samadhi is Hinduistic or Indian term and other philosophies has different terms like satori or kensho in Zen...

This is not something which I have made up, this can be all experienced!

originally posted by: UniFinity
well it may seem that way, but as I said I have no expectation and thought in deep meditation so how come, there is desire??

You go into it expecting something.

And various stages of samadhi and bliss that comes with it are very well documented so this is nothing new...all old schools are teaching the same thing but today everyone likes short cuts but there are no sort cuts here, just correct effort and then understanding and then being!

Again, you expect to be rewarded for your effort.

Until now I have had a two short samadhi experiences and they are mind blowing even if only for short time which lasted...this cannot be understood OR even explained in words but must be experienced!

So are first times getting to each base.

google samadhi and explore if interested...but samadhi is Hinduistic or Indian term and other philosophies has different terms like satori or kensho in Zen...

This is not something which I have made up, this can be all experienced!

I already have. I'm not just some doubting thomas sticking my fingers in my ears yelling "I can't hear you".

a reply to: Itisnowagain

sorry but we had our chat in the other thread about self realization and lets just leave it at that. We have different views and that is great.

I will not accept your philosophy because of my experiences such as samadhi and so on...various states of conciousness exists and one of them is complete self-realization, until you reach it you are just swimming in samsara. if it were so obvious as you make it, than there would be no need for meditation for a life time or two

originally posted by: UniFinity

Until now I have had a two short samadhi experiences and they are mind blowing even if only for short time which lasted...this cannot be understood OR even explained in words but must be experienced!

Whatever was experienced was an experience - they are transitory and are not it. What you seek is the absence of the seeker. When you are no longer looking for some thing in particular - an experience, any thing at all - when the seeking stops, what has always been, may be glimpsed.

This is not something which I have made up, this can be all experienced!

I know it is not made up - the experience happened here and I have heard of many 'others' it has happened to - but this can be the new 'thing' to get - it can seem like the goal. It is mind blowing, mouth wateringly yummy but it is not ever present - it is not here now. What is though?? That is it. That is the Self that is sought. It is always right here.

You go into it expecting something.
Again, you expect to be rewarded for your effort.

both statements are false for me. This is your imposition!

This is far away from my thoughts, how many times have I stated to have NO expectations?
and also I do not bother thinking about rewords, what reword can there be if I am not a thing?

This just happens naturally when you are empty or silent. If anything I go into it, as you say, with thought of complete emptiness, as Buddha is saying in famous heart sutra.

originally posted by: UniFinity
both statements are false for me. This is your imposition!

No, you stated them clearly over and over.

This is far away from my thoughts, how many times have I stated to have NO expectations?
and also I do not bother thinking about rewords, what reword can there be if I am not a thing?

An ocean of blissful love.

This just happens naturally when you are empty or silent. If anything I go into it, as you say, with thought of complete emptiness, as Buddha is saying in famous heart sutra.

You may have convinced yourself of that but I think that your description of the journey and an "end-goal" pretty much says the opposite.

Just like my description of the purpose of life - "It's the obvious answer"

a reply to: daskakik

well you have to put it into words so you can imagine something. But that is far from expectation, right?

How else can I explain myself, other than through words.

You cannot know my real motivation and intent by just that writing. This was just a way of describing something indescribable so we can debate and you are just imposing this on me now.

And I would probably do the same in your shoes. But this does not mean anything, we are just words on a screen and any meaning you put behind those words is just the mirror of you and not me!

look more info about what I am writing:
www.meditationexpert.com...
www.meditationexpert.com...
www.meditationexpert.com...
www.meditationexpert.com...

Maybe this will help to clear the questions and doubts. This is far from what you two are explaining here. And what it is written here is just tip of the iceberg.
There is nothing else I can say or I will make the matter worse, because of my inability to express myself correctly, or so it seems.

Thank you for all opinions!

originally posted by: UniFinity
well you have to put it into words so you can imagine something. But that is far from expectation, right?

No, not necessarily.

How else can I explain myself, other than through words.

You don't need to explain yourself.

You cannot know my real motivation and intent by just that writing. This was just a way of describing something indescribable so we can debate and you are just imposing this on me now.

Sure one can know someones motivation by what they write.

It is more than just describing something.

You fight about it. It is something you feel passionate about. Being passionate about existing without desire. Quite the contradiction.

And I would probably do the same in your shoes. But this does not mean anything, we are just words on a screen and any meaning you put behind those words is just the mirror of you and not me!

That sounds like a cop out.

It can't be a mirror because I'm not the one making these claims. I'm not the one trying to shoehorn his experiences into en existing structure. I did that back when I was a christian.

a reply to: daskakik

OK, look at my edit. A lot of info about what I have tried to convey in this thread but failed it seems. But what is written there I know it to be crumbles of the whole truth of nature of our reality from experiences.

This was a blast, taking with you but I have not worded myself good enough or so it seems. Well communication is not one of my strong points.

It may be a cop out but it is the truth. You simply cannot know, you just imagine, just like I imagine you. But I am at fault here to, because of clumsy use of words. But words are empty and nothing but what is written can be known all else is your imagination. Expectations, motivations intent...these are lost in words and are imagined. Except if they are specifically defined in conversation, which is not the case here.

originally posted by: UniFinity
It may be a cop out but it is the truth.

I'll just assume that you don't know what a cop out is. A cop out is an excuse for evasion. It can be completely false but presented as a truth by the person not wanting to face things.

OK, look at my edit. A lot of info about what I have tried to convey in this thread but failed it seems.

Clicked the first link scanned and this caught my eye:

The process of unbinding (unwinding), if done through tantra, is extremely tiring and you really need great merit and wisdom to be able to do it.

No different than what you wrote in this thread and even sounding of superiority and elitism.

ETA: It isn't your fault. Like I said you are trying to make your experiences fit an existing framework. The problem is that that framework has it's ideas and phrases which people use all the time but which are never really examined. They just resonate and that is good enough.

a reply to: daskakik

great, thanks for your opinion.

you seem to be so sure about everything and seems to know a lot about frameworks and how they are just ideas...I wonder what experience you had to conclude that or is that just ego and imagination talking?

This is real stuff. But it is for a person to find out on his own. That is why at the beginning I sad you must have proof of your own. Things are EXACTLY defined. But you make a mistake, thinking that all there is to know is written there. Real teaching are rare even today on the net and in the link is just tip of the iceberg.

We have come full circle now, right back to the beginning of our debate about self evidence!

This is perfect time to end our debate.