It's time to wake up!

originally posted by: UniFinity
a reply to: Andy1144

yes, will do.

thank you again Andy, for a self-proclaimed fool

, you sure know how to write and have given me a lot of insight with your posts!

I just got that reference. Thanks.

originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: daskakik

You are not using my definition of DE.

Yes, I am. Now that I figured out what you are talking about I can say that I am addressing what you call DE.

This has had major implications. People can go through great depression and when they see through the self so much suffering drops. It is a big deal.

Like I said, to you it might be.

It isn't to me.

a reply to: daskakik

You can't know if you haven't tried. How are you so certain you know what I mean?
Hint: You don't. DE is an experience which is available to anyone.
Also, just to reconcile, DE doesn't do anything unless you are inquiring into the nature of self.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Actually it probably addresses the OP better than most of the posts in the thread.

Wake up from what or to what?

Someone way back cleared up what Watts was really saying and it didn't even jive with the OP or the typical "let's make things better" philosophies.

originally posted by: Andy1144
You can't know if you haven't tried. How are you so certain you know what I mean?
Hint: You don't. DE is an experience which is available to anyone.
Also, just to reconcile, DE doesn't do anything unless you are inquiring into the nature of self.

And you know that I have not tried?

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: TzarChasm

Actually it probably addresses the OP better than most of the posts in the thread.

Wake up from what or to what?

Someone way back cleared up what Watts was really saying and it didn't even jive with the OP or the typical "let's make things better" philosophies.

never does. but people just want to "feel" better, they dont want to actually get better. that takes effort and discipline, unlike virtual philosophies on conspiracy forums.

a reply to: daskakik

Yes, because it is blatantly obvious that you don't know what I meant with DE and self inquiry. Have you done self inquiries to see past the illusion of self?

a reply to: Andy1144

You are a very powerful wizard indeed.

Is it so hard for you to accept that I do know but that it isn't that big of a deal to me?

You actually sound almost religious about the whole thing.

a reply to: daskakik

What have you tried? I am asking if you have tried doing self inquiry in order to see beyond the illusion of self. That's what I am talking about.

a reply to: Andy1144
Let it go.

I came upon my understanding through another, spontaneous way. Even that isn't that big a deal.

Still, I know what you are talking about.

We both know that I can't prove it to you so, what do you expect to accomplish by asking me the same things over and over?

a reply to: daskakik

I am not sure if you know and understand what realizing no self is. You say you came to an understanding. Is the experience of no self an understanding?

It is a big deal in the sense that it does change your life in every possible direction. If this isn't the case with you, then you either haven't experienced it, or only glimpsed it and clung to the memory of it, not experiencing it fresh in every moment.

So I wanted to know what exactly you have experienced because I am not sure if it is no-self experience or something else. Ask itisnowagain if it matters you if you see beyond the illusion of self. It does.

If something changed your life for the better in a big amount, then why wouldn't that matter? Are you arguing that seeing beyond self wont change that much.

But there are many people who do experience the falling of self and don't feel it much because they almost immediately fall back into delusion.

originally posted by: Andy1144
I am not sure if you know and understand what realizing no self is. You say you came to an understanding. Is the experience of no self an understanding?

What difference does it make to you?

As far as "understanding", just the place card I chose to use.

It is a big deal in the sense that it does change your life in every possible direction. If this isn't the case with you, then you either haven't experienced it, or only glimpsed it and clung to the memory of it, not experiencing it fresh in every moment.

Maybe or maybe not.

So I wanted to know what exactly you have experienced because I am not sure if it is no-self experience or something else. Ask itisnowagain if it matters you if you see beyond the illusion of self. It does.

While I respect Itisnowagain, I don't hold his opinion to be anything more than just an opinion.

a reply to: daskakik

Opinion becomes fact if there is enough evidence supporting it. I simply don't know what your argument is against saying that seeing beyond the illusion of self has positive implications when there is enough evidence showing it does.
Doesn't living life with less suffering matter?

originally posted by: Andy1144
Opinion becomes fact if there is enough evidence supporting it.

You don't have much, if any, of that so that isn't going to lead us anywhere.

I simply don't know what your argument is against saying that seeing beyond the illusion of self has positive implications. But if you are tired of this then we can end it.

I never said it didn't.

I succinctly said that there is no proof that it is any better than remaining within the illusion of self.

You claim that it causes mental suffering but you still can't prove that that is the case and, even if it is, you can't prove that it is actually worse.

It only seems that way when you apply a yardstick based on the human illusion of self.

Of course, you will try to slip out of that one by claiming a paradox.

a reply to: daskakik

You claim that it causes mental suffering but you still can't prove that that is the case and, even if it is, you can't prove that it is actually worse.

Ok, pretend for a moment that it is the case and seeing through the illusion of self would take away mental suffering. Wouldn't seeing the illusion be better then not seeing it if this is the case?

originally posted by: Andy1144
Ok, pretend for a moment that it is the case and seeing through the illusion of self would take away mental suffering. Wouldn't seeing the illusion be better then not seeing it if this is the case?

We could do that but it would miss the point.

Mental suffering = bad is from the human illusion perspective.

If you have seen through the illusion then, why are you still worried about the mental suffering of other humans, if you know it isn't real?

a reply to: daskakik

The illusion isn't real but the experience of it is real, that is why one can feel compelled to help others see it, although from the absolute perspective it doesn't matter if one suffers or not. I've addressed this earlier.

If your friend was suicidal because he thought he was being haunted by ghosts, wouldn't you have the impulse to help him see through that illusion? If you knew you could help, you probably would.

Your arguments only deal with the absolute perspective and not enough with the relative.
There is nothing wrong with anything, including suffering. It doesn't make any difference if one sees the illusion of self or not. And I agree with this fully. But this is only one perspective.

This point of view denies the relative truth too much and only addresses the absolute. This isn't the full picture and I tried to make this point in my other thread, "non-duality VS creating your reality."

One can feel compelled to help others even through seeing through the illusion of self. He still used dualistic concepts like right and wrong for functional purposes, but he always knows it isn't ultimately true. One needs to embrace both absolute and relative truths.

nobodysnotes.com...

nobodysnotes.com...

Please read these short paragraphs. They address fully what I am trying to point out.