Watch Muslim use circular logic to debate Londoner regarding terrorism

a reply to: FlySolo

He has a right to speak as so granted by the laws that govern the land he resides in.

However he should not be speaking about Islam if he's not qualified to do so. Its evident he has errors and bid'ah.

Why would i condone somone speaking half truths about islam? Thats for one sinful. And doing that can causes confusion and lead people away from the quran and sunna.
Bid'ah is innovation of scripture.

originally posted by: deliberator

Actually you are wrong.

UK Muslims condemn ISIS terrorists

Be that is it may, rank and file UK Muslims have a confused ability to condemn anything if polls as to their attitudes considered. Our secular and liberal society is threatened by increasing intolerance and the acceptance of violence by those with religious worldview above the freedom of the society they chose to live in.

A poll of Muslim opinion in the UK has exposed a large minority who believe violence against those who depict Mohammed is justified.

National Secular Soc

a reply to: paraphi

I find myself agreeing with you especially after speaking to an Iranian working over here. He said the Iranians had had religion force down their throats. My son told me he had recently watched a video of Iran before the Ayotollahs arrived. People were on the beach enjoying their lives and wearing pretty bikini's etc - what a change to today.

a reply to: Kapusta

He has a right to speak as so granted by the laws that govern the land he resides in.

Oh, well, then you must mean freedom of speech. Interesting. Because freedom of speech has been eroded in the UK. At least to the point of saying anything negative about Islam. Actually, same goes for ATS and if I were to speak freely about my thoughts on Islam here, I would be censored.

So what do we have? The right to speak about Islam, only if you're a Muslim. Otherwise...you're a racist. Isn't that right? A racist even though an ideology isn't even a race. Anyway, let's not get caught up on those petty details. Let's talk about you and your view points. I'm not entirely convinced the man you say is speaking "innovation" about Islam is an isolated case. In fact, I'm not entirely convinced you aren't making excuses for him and your religion much in the same way he's using circular logic about terrorists. You say ahh, he's just talking Bid'ah, it's isn't the true meaning of Islam. He says Ah, those who commit terrorist acts are only a few, not reflective of the entire religion. So let's settle this so there is no confusion. What is your stance on apostasy? What is your stance on homosexuality? What is your stance on insulting your prophet and what is your stance on those who commit terrorism whom have never been out of the UK?

a reply to: FlySolo

The UK *never* had a "Freedom of Speech" law. The so called "Freedom of Speech" we currently have comes from an EU directive. Prior to that directive we had "The negative right to the freedom of creation and expression".

The negative right to the freedom of creation and expression might sound like 'freedom of speech' but its subtly different. The negative right to part in law means "unless prohibited by", so in translation it means we had the right to do/say what we want, except when what we do/say is prohibited by other laws.

Your rights of freedom of speech are not being eroded, because you technically never had them. I know its a bit off-topic, but its a pet peeve of mine where people think that the UK has freedom of speech. We don't, we only enjoy it because of our membership in the EU.

Now on to the topic. Its been my experience that whenever Islam (or any other religion) is discussed, it ends up in a circular logic argument. No matter who is doing the discussion. Which makes religious discussion quite irrelevant in most cases. Believe what you want to believe, and let others believe what they want to believe.

I do admit that I have significant problems with Islam and Muslims in the UK. Specifically that they want US to abide by their laws and customs, and they want US to change our laws to suit them. For example the wearing of a niquab in a court of law. UK law says that you may not hide your face from a judge, so that he may positively identify the person standing before him/her. Muslim women who choose to wear the niquab refuse to reveal their face to the judge, citing their religious rights.

a reply to: FlySolo

I see where you are going with this and i get the feeling you want to debate this issue. However I'll have to decline . i am aware of your tatics on this board and even if i present evedience it will only fall on deff ears.

I am not aware of the current laws in UK as i reside in the US.

My opnion on everything you just asked me. Live and let live so long as it doent effect me.

When's the last time you saw somone get killed for apostacy? That's extremist ideology.

The first order is dawa( calling somone back to islam.)
In rare cases apostacy can carry a heay penalty. That would be an extreme case of somone for example causing fitna from their apostasy.

Killing somone for homosexuality is a Shia thing .
I also can't give an opinion on this because my knowlege under shria on this subject is weak. I'll have to find the exact ruling on this and get back to you.

Personally i don't subsribe to it. I disagree with it because it stops the production of life IMO.

As far as killing people for insulting the prophet ..again an extremist ideology .

The prophet (pbuh) was beat up , mocked , ridiculed etc etc. His companions were upset and wanted to seek revenge. His reply was simple and direct.

"Leave them , god willing they will come to islam"
More to the story but to make it short .killing for mocking in any situation including islam is wrong no doubt.

Let me try and make this simple for you to understand.

In Islam our understanding of god is. , loving, peaceful, most merciful, most gracious, love at the purest form.

Anything counter to that is not of god but rather of evil. So if you hear or read something of islam counter to the essences i doscribed. Question it.

originally posted by: BMorris

The UK *never* had a "Freedom of Speech" law. The so called "Freedom of Speech" we currently have comes from an EU directive. Prior to that directive we had "The negative right to the freedom of creation and expression".

Er, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Free speech in the UK is recognised as a common law. The EU "Article 10" was incorporated into the Human Rights Act.

What the UK has are laws that limit free speech and expression in very few areas, notably hate speech and incitement to violence and defamation. Quite right too.

Do you have examples where freedom of speech is being eroded? The fact that the media was too afraid to print some Muhammad cartoons just show the fear of Muslim reaction rather then anything legal. Currently, it's fear of offending and causing a riot by some brainwashed imbecilic that is curtailing free speech.

I can say what the hell I like in the UK - and can even walk around naked if I can stand the chill and no one is offended.

originally posted by: Kapusta

As far as killing people for insulting the prophet ..again an extremist ideology .

In the UK a significant minority of those people who follow Islam think it is justifiable to violently react. I really wish Muslims just got on with worshipping Allah and not compromising my liberal and secular lifestyle.

If you cannot live in the 21st century, then you need to go to a country that lives in the 8th century, in my view. I say that as a bit of free speech.

A poll of Muslim opinion in the UK has exposed a large minority who believe violence against those who depict Mohammed is justified.

Secular Society

a reply to: paraphi

I never said it was being eroded, I said we never had it in the first place. What we have is:

en.wikipedia.org...

The negative right to the freedom of expression, and that "Freedom of speech" comes from the EU.

Also, you cannot go about naked if you can stand the chill, except on private land, that comes under indecent exposure.

a reply to: paraphi

That was a telephone poll done by the BBC .

Not sure how trustable that source is.

I know that the Muslims including my self who are very very strict practicing Muslims don't support that one bit.

originally posted by: BMorris
Also, you cannot go about naked if you can stand the chill, except on private land, that comes under indecent exposure.

Ah, indecent exposure is only invoked if you are trying to shock i.e. "willy waving". If I wandered about naked and someone reported me, then it would be a public order offence in England and Wales.

Anyhoo, back to topic. In our liberal society, Muslims - many of whom have fled oppressive Muslim countries - benefit from freedom to worship and act. Yet they bring with them a level of intolerance that compromises freedoms in their host country. Vey ironic.

a reply to: paraphi

Agreed, their intolerance of their host countries laws / culture / tradition is extremely ironic. Basically what they seem to want is a culture identical to the one they fled from, but with them at the top of the pile instead of the bottom.

I've actually seen "Sharia Law Enforced Area" posters in my home city of Manchester, which to my understanding, have no legal standing, but DID make me feel unsafe in my own country.

a reply to: Kapusta

i am aware of your tatics on this board and even if i present evedience it will only fall on deff ears.

And what tactic is that? I do like to debate however and I think I'm pretty good at it. Anything you say won't fall on deaf ears with me because I must know my opponents point of view to be a successful debater.

My opnion on everything you just asked me. Live and let live so long as it doent effect me.

That's a reasonable rule to follow.

When's the last time you saw somone get killed for apostacy? That's extremist ideology.

I live in Canada so it doesn't make the news much. However, I can't speak for ME countries. I would imagine apostasy could be used as a trumped up charge like adultery or anything else in a corrupt legal system.

The first order is dawa( calling somone back to islam.)
In rare cases apostacy can carry a heay penalty. That would be an extreme case of somone for example causing fitna from their apostasy.

Well, that doesn't sound very reasonable. Truth is, probably not very many people ever leave Islam for fear of reprisal. That alone goes against Christian values. If they do, they most likely choose Christianity and rarely become Atheist.

Personally i don't subsribe to it. I disagree with it because it stops the production of life IMO.

That isn't true at all. For women, they can be artificially inseminated or adoption is an option as well. Homosexuality has no effect on national birthrates. People choose not to have kids these days.

As far as killing people for insulting the prophet ..again an extremist ideology .

Ah, the "This is only for extremists" argument again. To be clear though, I didn't ask if you think they should be killed, just what your stance was. So, for the extremist argument, it's just a small percent as I pointed out in the OP. It doesn't reflect the entire religion. First, we have to ask, what constitutes "extreme"? Yes, killing is extreme but what about other punishment? Here's a poll taken of UK Muslims:

Policy Exchange: 61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished
www.civitas.org.uk...

Here's a poll of Austria Muslims on Apostasy

Die Presse (2013): 1 in 5 Muslims in Austria believe that anyone wanting to leave Islam should be killed.
muslimstatistics.wordpress.com...[/ ex]

Here's some on adultery:

Pew Research (2010): 77% of Egyptian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
58% of Jordanian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
36% of Indonesian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
82% of Pakistanis favor floggings and amputation
65% of Nigerian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
pewglobal.org...

Are these countries "Extreme"? or how about the punishments? I would say so. How about the 61% in UK that would like to punish homosexuals? I would say that is extreme as well. So you see, "extreme" applies to everyone and is no small number. Even if only 1%.

In Islam our understanding of god is. , loving, peaceful, most merciful, most gracious, love at the purest form.

To the 1st world civilized Muslim perhaps. Tell that to the Swedes. Rape up 1,400 percent and Norway sees shotgun sales spike to unprecedented numbers sold to women. Even you, with your moderate views would not feel safe in a refugee camp hosting multiple ethnic muslim factions while hiding under the Q'uran umbrella of "peace and love" You, ARE the minority of your own ideology.

any uk subject preaching this fanatical view against the uk public should be snatched by the sbs ,or lady diana type assasination,.

naval intelligence and gchq need to get their act together.

people go missing all the time