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Atheist Awarded $2M in Settlement After Being Refused Secular Rehab Treatment

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posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 12:59 AM
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a reply to: luthier

And guess what? If you have money to go to "rehab" ... you know what they do?

AA!

Yep, they just dress it up in a fancy hotel-like nature retreat with horseback riding and mineral baths. At the end of the day, nearly ALL of the big time treatment centers use 12-step, AA programs.

This isn't a rich vs. poor thing.

SMART recovery is 100% free, run by volunteers.




posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:00 AM
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originally posted by: Southern Guardian

originally posted by: luthier
So are you willing to pay out of your pocket or organize drs and nurses to work for free?


Why should I? Because I don't want to force people to attend religious programs I need to pay a special fee according to you? Because I respect the constitution and peoples constitutional rights?

Where do you get off?

And I believe the State should cover the costs of these rehab programs. don't mind my taxes going to them. I do take issue with forcing people to attend specific religious ones.


Sometimes when you f up you just have to take what you can get.


So really, if you commit a crime, this means that government has the right to force you into a religious program? Yes or no? Does this or does this not violate the constitution?


No it does not. It's a grey area. You have no idea what you are talking about. Charity hospitals are religious organizations they donate their time and save money.

It says no where in the constitution this man needs rehab. Thats where the problem is. They can't order him to go. They should have given him a choice go to the cheapest useful rehab or serve more time.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:01 AM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: luthier

And guess what? If you have money to go to "rehab" ... you know what they do?

AA!

Yep, they just dress it up in a fancy hotel-like nature retreat with horseback riding and mineral baths. At the end of the day, nearly ALL of the big time treatment centers use 12-step, AA programs.

This isn't a rich vs. poor thing.

SMART recovery is 100% free, run by volunteers.


I am not argueing. They just don't do detox or employ drs and psychologists inpatient programs. Which is the detox part of the program. The expense comes from that.
edit on 27-10-2015 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:04 AM
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a reply to: luthier

Usually what happens (I've seen this) ... an addict or alcoholic will come into the ER with withdrawl symptoms and be sedated and watched carefully until they're through the worst of it. During that time, people from AA will come by and try to enlist them.

Yep, AA members prowl the hospitals for new people going through detox. I kind have have mixed feelings about it. Sure, it's a good way to expose them to an ongoing treatment plan outside of the hospital, but I also see it as predatory considering their strong social structure and cult-like hierarchy.

I guess in the end, something is better than nothing *sigh*.

So, you can get detoxed by going to an ER...maybe. I can't speak for all ER's -- but I know the hospitals in my city will keep you until you've been stabilized.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:08 AM
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originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: VictorBloodworth
a reply to: LABTECH767

Well in America anyway..
That's not an issue in Canada as we have the dreaded socialised medicine..
Can't tell you how much it sucks not having to shell out $100000 or more for treatment or be left to die...
Damn socialist heathens...
Sarcasm off.


Yep. I was in a waiting room while they let my friend go into seizures since he had a record of abuse. (He was also half Cherokee). It was disgusting. I had to put him in the car and drive to the Catholic hospital down the road. I am not religious but I was very grateful and so was he.


You should be disgusted.
You can thank your fellow citizens who think universal healthcare is a bad idea for that.
Feel free to be disgusted with them.
I am.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:11 AM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: luthier

Usually what happens (I've seen this) ... an addict or alcoholic will come into the ER with withdrawl symptoms and be sedated and watched carefully until they're through the worst of it. During that time, people from AA will come by and try to enlist them.

Yep, AA members prowl the hospitals for new people going through detox. I kind have have mixed feelings about it. Sure, it's a good way to expose them to an ongoing treatment plan outside of the hospital, but I also see it as predatory considering their strong social structure and cult-like hierarchy.

I guess in the end, something is better than nothing *sigh*.

So, you can get detoxed by going to an ER...maybe. I can't speak for all ER's -- but I know the hospitals in my city will keep you until you've been stabilized.


Again I agree for the most part. However ER's don't always treat people. They need to perscribe barbituates to control blood pressure and they often will not do this to repeat offenders. They definitely don't for repeat meth users and tmy expireince was pre affordable Care act bit also don't always treat uninsured or low uninsured people.

Just saying its not always a bad thing to have charity workers help people. The solution is for more Atheists to donate their time as drs and nurses and organise more nationally to help people like the catholics have in charity hospitals.
edit on 27-10-2015 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:17 AM
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a reply to: luthier


No it does not. It's a grey area.


There's no 'grey' area buddy. Either you have government officials requiring somebody to attend a religious based organisation o(and promoting said religious organisation) r you're not. It's fairly clear that it's in violation of the constitution. This is why this individual won his court case.


You have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh clearly you do and I don't. This is why this individual won his court case. Because people have no idea what they're talking about, but you do. Clearly.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:24 AM
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originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: Southern Guardian

The Judges decree was a clear violation of the establishment clause within the 1st amendment and the understanding of the intent regarding separation of church and state.

This is a good outcome because it upheld the over-riding authority that the Constitution has over the judges opinion on such matters.

Exactly. I would have been fine with him getting twice as much, or half as much. It really doesn't matter. The important part is, these cases set precedent, and go a long way toward putting a stop to this nonsense.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:27 AM
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originally posted by: Southern Guardian
a reply to: luthier


No it does not. It's a grey area.


There's no 'grey' area buddy. Either you have government officials requiring somebody to attend a religious based organisation o(and promoting said religious organisation) r you're not. It's fairly clear that it's in violation of the constitution. This is why this individual won his court case.


You have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh clearly you do and I don't. This is why this individual won his court case. Because people have no idea what they're talking about, but you do. Clearly.


It's pretty clear they forced him to attend rehab. Which is against the construction on its own. There are plenty of bad court decisions out there and this was a terrible settlement. Yes you can't force people to attend religious services. I just don't know if that was the only option he had in the area. 2 million is absolutely rediculous.

The grey area is that a court can not force you to attend rehab without a choice of other punishment. Drug courts are trying new things to keep people out of jail who haven't committed violent crimes. I assume there was no other cost effective program but the op or source doesn't mention this.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:28 AM
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a reply to: luthier




However ER's don't always treat people. They need to perscribe barbituates to control blood pressure and they often will not do this to repeat offenders. They definitely don't for repeat meth users and tmy expireince was pre affordable Care act bit also don't always treat uninsured or low uninsured people.


Sadly because people fake it and they know this, they can't just be handing out controlled substances to people.
I call BS that a hospital let someone go into any sort of seizures and refused to do anything about it.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:31 AM
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originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: Southern Guardian

The Judges decree was a clear violation of the establishment clause within the 1st amendment and the understanding of the intent regarding separation of church and state.

This is a good outcome because it upheld the over-riding authority that the Constitution has over the judges opinion on such matters.

Exactly. I would have been fine with him getting twice as much, or half as much. It really doesn't matter. The important part is, these cases set precedent, and go a long way toward putting a stop to this nonsense.


That money comes from the state. Not the judge who issued the order. You could have given him five bucks.

They were trying to keep him out of jail with a rehab program. Maybe they should have let him do more time? Or maybe we should have a program by now to help addicts. Which is the real problem here.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:31 AM
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a reply to: luthier

Well, if we had a national healthcare system....

And perhaps if we actually funded detox centers and research into addiction treatment...

It's not the "atheists fault" -- lots of atheists would gladly fund such things, but the "survival of the fittest" and social Darwinist of the the country raise hell when you bring up spending public funds to control the rampant, out of control substance abuse problem we have in America.

I mean, just look at the numbers for alcohol alone:




The Centers for Disease Control has put a figure on how much it costs the American economy: $249 billion.

Alcohol cost $77 billion in impaired productivity at work in 2010, according to the CDC's breakdown published in the American Journal of Preventive Health. Adding in absenteeism and other factors, the total productivity toll from excess drinking approached $90 billion. That's not counting losses from alcohol-related deaths. The CDC has previously estimated that one in 10 deaths of working-age Americans are caused by too much drinking.

The total cost of excessive drinking to the economy is rising. The last time the CDC made a similar calculation, excess drinking was blamed for $224 billion in costs, estimated for 2006. The increase, about 2.7 percent annually from 2006 to 2010, outpaced inflation.
Bloomberg


So 1 in 10 working age Americans die from drinking to much...and this stuff is legal? We're throwing $250 billion dollars away every year, and the numbers are rising every year. We have a public health crisis on our hands here people; but no one wants to talk about it -- we all love our alcohol to much. Every time I turn around I see a new article "wine makes you live longer!" or this gem:




A Glass Of Red Wine Is The Equivalent To An Hour At The Gym, Says New Study

Research conducted by the University of Alberta in Canada has found that health benefits in resveratrol, a compound found in red wine, are similar to those we get from exercise

Huffington Post

But only in moderation right? Well that's the problem -- Americans aren't moderating if 1 in 10 of us are dying from to much alcohol.

But we won't publicly fund treatment and research into addiction treatment -- we'd rather just "handle it with charity" because, "Those tax dollars are mine!". No one batted an eye when we declared the "War on Drugs" during the Regan years.

We have a serious problem in this country with just ONE addictive substance, not including other forms of hard drugs. Yet we just rely on religious organizations because some of those inside those religious organizations are against public funds going to real solutions, real science, proper detox centers and better education.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:31 AM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

What is more scary is the number of medical professionals whom are now atheists, do you really want to put your life in there hands - "oh that's a nice heart you have I know someone whom would like it very much and they have a better brain so I see them as a more valuable ANIMAL".


What. The. Hell.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Perhaps both would be most appropriate.

Do you really believe non-religious medical professions are like this? Seriously? O_o


Here is a point, a Secularist (Read Atheist) is more likely like anyone to recieve better and more caring treatment in a christian hospital than in an atheist (oh he is suffering let's put him down) animal clinic.


Except your make-believe atheist 'animal clinic' where they put people down all willy nilly, and swap vital organs to whom they please, is the plot for a horror film and not real life.
edit on 27-10-2015 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:33 AM
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originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: luthier




However ER's don't always treat people. They need to perscribe barbituates to control blood pressure and they often will not do this to repeat offenders. They definitely don't for repeat meth users and tmy expireince was pre affordable Care act bit also don't always treat uninsured or low uninsured people.


Sadly because people fake it and they know this, they can't just be handing out controlled substances to people.
I call BS that a hospital let someone go into any sort of seizures and refused to do anything about it.


Thats fine but it happened in Austin Texas in 2007. It also happens all the time with the homeless. The cop on duty was laughing the whole time.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:35 AM
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originally posted by: Southern Guardian
a reply to: luthier


No it does not. It's a grey area.


There's no 'grey' area buddy. Either you have government officials requiring somebody to attend a religious based organisation o(and promoting said religious organisation) r you're not. It's fairly clear that it's in violation of the constitution. This is why this individual won his court case.


You have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh clearly you do and I don't. This is why this individual won his court case. Because people have no idea what they're talking about, but you do. Clearly.


I can say after considering this and letting go the trauma of my personal experience with rehab I was wrong .



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:36 AM
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a reply to: stosh64

AA also ends each meeting with the 'Lords Prayer'. They caim to be spiritual not religious but to me that is the equivalent of someone saying they are not fat they are simply husky.

While AA may be good for some, they have too many cult like characteristics and many flaws.

Judges often order people to go x amount of meetings a week, and if they don't oblige said person goes to jail on a VoP.

This in my opinion is against the 1st Amendment as AA is very much a faith based group with religious doctrine.

More on the downfalls of AA:

www.orange-papers.org...
edit on 27-10-2015 by jrod because: typos



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:41 AM
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a reply to: jrod

Sometimes. Not always. There are some groups who use the serenity prayer...but that also is religious! LOL




The Serenity Prayer is the common name for a prayer authored by the American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr[1][2] (1892–1971). It has been adopted by Alcoholics Anonymous and other twelve-step programs. The best-known form is:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Wikipedia

So that prayer (they even call it a prayer which has religious connotations) -- was created by a theologian, and starts off with "God". Sounds pretty religious to me.

But no...they don't always do the Lord's Prayer from the Bible...just quite often.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:43 AM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: luthier

Well, if we had a national healthcare system....

And perhaps if we actually funded detox centers and research into addiction treatment...

It's not the "atheists fault" -- lots of atheists would gladly fund such things, but the "survival of the fittest" and social Darwinist of the the country raise hell when you bring up spending public funds to control the rampant, out of control substance abuse problem we have in America.

I mean, just look at the numbers for alcohol alone:




The Centers for Disease Control has put a figure on how much it costs the American economy: $249 billion.

Alcohol cost $77 billion in impaired productivity at work in 2010, according to the CDC's breakdown published in the American Journal of Preventive Health. Adding in absenteeism and other factors, the total productivity toll from excess drinking approached $90 billion. That's not counting losses from alcohol-related deaths. The CDC has previously estimated that one in 10 deaths of working-age Americans are caused by too much drinking.

The total cost of excessive drinking to the economy is rising. The last time the CDC made a similar calculation, excess drinking was blamed for $224 billion in costs, estimated for 2006. The increase, about 2.7 percent annually from 2006 to 2010, outpaced inflation.
Bloomberg


So 1 in 10 working age Americans die from drinking to much...and this stuff is legal? We're throwing $250 billion dollars away every year, and the numbers are rising every year. We have a public health crisis on our hands here people; but no one wants to talk about it -- we all love our alcohol to much. Every time I turn around I see a new article "wine makes you live longer!" or this gem:




A Glass Of Red Wine Is The Equivalent To An Hour At The Gym, Says New Study

Research conducted by the University of Alberta in Canada has found that health benefits in resveratrol, a compound found in red wine, are similar to those we get from exercise

Huffington Post

But only in moderation right? Well that's the problem -- Americans aren't moderating if 1 in 10 of us are dying from to much alcohol.

But we won't publicly fund treatment and research into addiction treatment -- we'd rather just "handle it with charity" because, "Those tax dollars are mine!". No one batted an eye when we declared the "War on Drugs" during the Regan years.

We have a serious problem in this country with just ONE addictive substance, not including other forms of hard drugs. Yet we just rely on religious organizations because some of those inside those religious organizations are against public funds going to real solutions, real science, proper detox centers and better education.


It's not the atheist fault and I never implied that. I did say that religious organizations have organized charity hospitals and Atheists could do the same.

I don't buy your conspiracy about Catholic hospitals not wanting universal healthcare. They have universal health care all over Catholic areas and are for it. I have no experience with other religious hospitals and can't say here or there.

As for everything else I agree. Your preaching to the choir.

I don't think it's a constitutional issue regarding healthcare its just the right thing to do for wealthy countries. There are many models to use Germany, Swiss have a non profit, Canada etc but its barbaric to profit from the sick



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:53 AM
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a reply to: jrod

A big problem I have with court-ordered AA is that you end up with a bunch of people there along with you that may be worse offenders than you. Child molesters, rapists, people with felony assault charges -- and it's all "anonymous"!

There have been cases of people raped and even murdered in AA by their sponsors. There can be very predatory people in AA meetings, preying on younger and vulnerable people. This is called "13th Stepping". Someone finally decided to say something about it after leaving AA:



It even features interviews with an ex-member of the AA World Board:



The movie is called The 13th Step, and it's won a bunch of awards. I think we should stop court-ordering people into these "autonomously run" meetings that have no oversight whatsoever by anyone.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 01:56 AM
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a reply to: luthier

Its not so much a conspiracy by the Catholic run hospitals -- it's just that a majority of conservatives that are against a national healthcare system (like in England/Canada) also happen to members of churches that run AA meetings and support the court-ordered attendance of AA by offenders of crimes committed due to drugs/alcohol.



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