While You Were Sleeping: 44% of Republicans Favor an American Theocracy

a reply to: luthier

Religion = supernatural miracles, creation of the universe, divine intervention, prayer, miracles, salvation...

A government doesn't involve any of those things. Your government did not create the universe. Your government cannot divinely intervene and save your life. You can try and pray to the government, but it won't do you any good. The government doesn't do supernatural miracles or save your soul from eternal damnation in hell through salvation..

Governments are institutions created by men to organize and manage people/resources. Belief in a supernatural, supreme and omnipotent creator is religion. The two can co-exist, but they are not the same thing.

I don't understand how anyone could somehow hold the two up to the light, nod and say, "Yep, looks the same to me".

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: luthier

He is also a TV personality. People know him. It's more of a sign of idiocracy on a whole. He says dumb stuff to get in the news.

I can agree with the idiocracy part but what concerns me is all the idiots buying into the dumb stuff he says.

btw....Trump isn't an independent...he's a Republican. Lie down with dogs and expect to get a few fleas!

you scratchin amigo?

Did you read my post? I wouldn't vote for him.
However I am talking about his policy issues not what he is running as.

Do you even know what his platform is or are you just towing your own party line?

Trump is NOT a classic Republican.

Many of his policies are actually much closer to the Democratic platform.

I think that in general people are fed up with establishment
politicians and politicians in general.
That is why Trump who is clearly not really Republican
and Carson (who is but is not a politician) are at the top
of the polls.

People are crying out, anyone please, just not another
politician.
The political class has screwed the country up so badly
we need to try something new. No establishment politician
will ever improve the country at this point, they are all
too entrenched in fund raising and placating to really
make the changes necessary.

So for the Republicans at least, when it comes to Trump,
they don't care that he is not really religious at all.
I know it is a great surprise to many of you that Republicans
care more about getting rid of the corrupt political class
who have ruined the country than religion.

This is true. But I would argue that your points about Democrats are untrue. Most of the politicians are Christian. They may not pander to that vote bit they are not anti Christian. The only anti Christians I know are radical Atheists. Most common sense Atheists are much more just leave me alone about the topic. It's always the radicals that make the most noise.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Your comments are in the best of company:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Danbury Baptists

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: grandmakdw

They might be ant-Christian in their beliefs, but they certainly don't want to take your right to religious freedom away. Pray all you want, attend as many church services as you need. Donate to as many religious charity organizations as you can afford -- just don't force your beliefs on me, or try to incorporate them into new laws.

I think individually, 1-on-1 liberals and Democrats may appear "anti-Christian" -- but on a whole I think you'd find they'd be more open and supportive in allowing everyone to practice their own religious beliefs.

Christians, (from my personal experience) seem to be more intolerant of other religions, as they are seen as a form of competition. To someone who isn't religious -- they could care less who worships what, and want to see everyone's right to practice their faith protected.

I am a Christian, and having been a military family member
for over 50 years. I have been in many many different denominations
and have been closely affiliated with thousands of Christians of all kinds.

The thousands upon thousands of Christians that I have known personally
are far more tolerant of other religions,
than anti-theists are of Christianity.

Out of all the Christians I know maybe 5% are what you call intolerant,
95% of those I know are respectful of other religions and
supportive of their right to worship as they see fit.


That is my observation as a Christian who lives with
Christians and has all my life, and in many different
states and countries and in many different denominations.

So if you are only observing from the outside
as a non-Christian and being
judgmental and biased in your assumptions, you may
only want to see the 5% and refuse to see the reality
of the 95% who are supportive of freedom of all religion
for all people.

Out of all the non-Christians I know, very few are tolerant of
Christians, and on ATS, I'd say 95% of non-Christians are
extremely intolerant of Christianity, and by logical
extension Christians themselves.

do you think we would take the declaration of independence or bill of rights nearly so seriously if we had no real proof of who had authored either of them, and simply accepted them on merit of their contents?

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: luthier

Religion = supernatural miracles, creation of the universe, divine intervention, prayer, miracles, salvation...

A government doesn't involve any of those things. Your government did not create the universe. Your government cannot divinely intervene and save your life. You can try and pray to the government, but it won't do you any good. The government doesn't do supernatural miracles or save your soul from eternal damnation in hell through salvation..

Governments are institutions created by men to organize and manage people/resources. Belief in a supernatural, supreme and omnipotent creator is religion. The two can co-exist, but they are not the same thing.

I don't understand how anyone could somehow hold the two up to the light, nod and say, "Yep, looks the same to me".

Well maybe you should read some social theory books then.

You don't think having pictures of a politician in every home and having to have reverence for him is similar?

How about not being able to say anything bad about the politics without being exiled or imprisoned?

I think you need to be a little more anthropological about the subject than stick to semantical arguements.

The outcome of brainwashing and blind faith are very similar.

a reply to: luthier

Sorry, but Kim Jon Un isn't going to be saving anyone's soul anytime soon. He also didn't create the universe and can't health sick and cure the blind.

Sure, governments can brainwash and religions and governments use the same tool box at times to achieve their goals.

Using similar tools doesn't make them the same. I use a computer, does that mean I am a computer programmer? No, but they also use computers. I use a Kitchen Aid mixer, does that mean I am a chef? No -- but a chef also uses a Kitchen Aid mixer.

Religion and government co-evolved alongside one another, and often times depended on one another for legitimacy, and one again this does not make them the same.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
do you think we would take the declaration of independence or bill of rights nearly so seriously if we had no real proof of who had authored either of them, and simply accepted them on merit of their contents?

I think so. If I didn't know John Locke wrote two Treatises I would still understand the content as being meaningful.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: luthier

Sorry, but Kim Jon Un isn't going to be saving anyone's soul anytime soon. He also didn't create the universe and can't health sick and cure the blind.

Sure, governments can brainwash and religions and governments use the same tool box at times to achieve their goals.

Using similar tools doesn't make them the same. I use a computer, does that mean I am a computer programmer? No, but they also use computers. I use a Kitchen Aid mixer, does that mean I am a chef? No -- but a chef also uses a Kitchen Aid mixer.

Religion and government co-evolved alongside one another, and often times depended on one another for legitimacy, and one again this does not make them the same.

Your arguement is rediculous.

Belief system is key here. Belief. Not circumstance.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: luthier

He is also a TV personality. People know him. It's more of a sign of idiocracy on a whole. He says dumb stuff to get in the news.

I can agree with the idiocracy part but what concerns me is all the idiots buying into the dumb stuff he says.

btw....Trump isn't an independent...he's a Republican. Lie down with dogs and expect to get a few fleas!

you scratchin amigo?

Did you read my post? I wouldn't vote for him.
However I am talking about his policy issues not what he is running as.

Do you even know what his platform is or are you just towing your own party line?

Trump is NOT a classic Republican.

Many of his policies are actually much closer to the Democratic platform.

I think that in general people are fed up with establishment
politicians and politicians in general.
That is why Trump who is clearly not really Republican
and Carson (who is but is not a politician) are at the top
of the polls.

People are crying out, anyone please, just not another
politician.
The political class has screwed the country up so badly
we need to try something new. No establishment politician
will ever improve the country at this point, they are all
too entrenched in fund raising and placating to really
make the changes necessary.

So for the Republicans at least, when it comes to Trump,
they don't care that he is not really religious at all.
I know it is a great surprise to many of you that Republicans
care more about getting rid of the corrupt political class
who have ruined the country than religion.

This is true. But I would argue that your points about Democrats are untrue. Most of the politicians are Christian. They may not pander to that vote bit they are not anti Christian. The only anti Christians I know are radical Atheists. Most common sense Atheists are much more just leave me alone about the topic. It's always the radicals that make the most noise.

I challenge you to name US level politicians, Senators, Congressman, etc.
who are Democrats, who are openly Christian
and who openly talk about their faith.
Politicians who claim to be Christian but never talk about
their faith or publicly acknowledge their faith outside
of political rallies (God Bless, and that sort of pap)
don't count. I'm talking about Cruz and Huckabee type
Christians who you know they are without a doubt an
unapologetic Christian.

I bet you won't be able to name a single one.

a reply to: luthier

Yes, belief.

Religion = belief in a supernatural creator/being "God"

Government = belief in security and prosperity

Religions deal with something governments don't deal in -- metaphysical, spiritual, supernatural stuff like -- your "soul". That's the purview of the church, not the state.

Mao isn't going to keep his followers out of "hell" -- and Stalin isn't going to perform miracles and walk on water.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: luthier

He is also a TV personality. People know him. It's more of a sign of idiocracy on a whole. He says dumb stuff to get in the news.

I can agree with the idiocracy part but what concerns me is all the idiots buying into the dumb stuff he says.

btw....Trump isn't an independent...he's a Republican. Lie down with dogs and expect to get a few fleas!

you scratchin amigo?

Did you read my post? I wouldn't vote for him.
However I am talking about his policy issues not what he is running as.

Do you even know what his platform is or are you just towing your own party line?

Trump is NOT a classic Republican.

Many of his policies are actually much closer to the Democratic platform.

I think that in general people are fed up with establishment
politicians and politicians in general.
That is why Trump who is clearly not really Republican
and Carson (who is but is not a politician) are at the top
of the polls.

People are crying out, anyone please, just not another
politician.
The political class has screwed the country up so badly
we need to try something new. No establishment politician
will ever improve the country at this point, they are all
too entrenched in fund raising and placating to really
make the changes necessary.

So for the Republicans at least, when it comes to Trump,
they don't care that he is not really religious at all.
I know it is a great surprise to many of you that Republicans
care more about getting rid of the corrupt political class
who have ruined the country than religion.

This is true. But I would argue that your points about Democrats are untrue. Most of the politicians are Christian. They may not pander to that vote bit they are not anti Christian. The only anti Christians I know are radical Atheists. Most common sense Atheists are much more just leave me alone about the topic. It's always the radicals that make the most noise.

I challenge you to name US level politicians, Senators, Congressman, etc.
who are Democrats, who are openly Christian
and who openly talk about their faith.
Politicians who claim to be Christian but never talk about
their faith or publicly acknowledge their faith outside
of political rallies (God Bless, and that sort of pap)
don't count. I'm talking about Cruz and Huckabee type
Christians who you know they are without a doubt an
unapologetic Christian.

I bet you won't be able to name a single one.

Thats absurd. How about just ones that go to church regularly and have that as their belief? What does public akwnowledgement have to do with someone's faith?

Even under your circumstance there are plenty and I am sure you know that.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Anyway, your answer really tells me nothing about your fear.
They all have said lots and lots of things. What have they
said specifically that has you so afraid?

It concerns me that given half a chance they would introduce their religious beliefs into the American political arena, even moreso than the havoc they have created in Congress already..

I do not in any way respect this, or want this. I believe they will trample all over the constitution to get their personal beliefs and religiosity at the forefront and that we should fight this.

My beliefs are personal to me, and I don't want to force them on anyone, anymore than I want anybody else to force their beliefs on me. They already try to force them on people.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Funny, what I just heard you say was "officials who parade what they claim as their 'Christianity' like a cheap prostitute."

Huckaby? Jesus help us all if that is your example of what a "true Christian" is.

So, let's see if I have this right ... your opinion is the measure of whether a given Christian is true?

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: luthier

Yes, belief.

Religion = belief in a supernatural creator/being "God"

Government = belief in security and prosperity

Religions deal with something governments don't deal in -- metaphysical, spiritual, supernatural stuff like -- your "soul". That's the purview of the church, not the state.

Mao isn't going to keep his followers out of "hell" -- and Stalin isn't going to perform miracles and walk on water.

You have missed the point even your own. What is the effect of the belief? Can both be zealotous and ignorant? Can people hold these politicians as Gods?

Seriously you are argueing a semantical point. Not what anyone was getting at by using the religious comparison.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
I challenge you to name US level politicians, Senators, Congressman, etc.
who are Democrats, who are openly Christian
and who openly talk about their faith.
Politicians who claim to be Christian but never talk about
their faith or publicly acknowledge their faith outside
of political rallies (God Bless, and that sort of pap)
don't count.

Because Lord knows, if they don't drag their religion into every discussion and brag about their piety, casting their pearls before swine, they aren't "real" Christians, right? LOL!

It's a good thing Jesus has you to keep the real Christians straight from the posers!

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: luthier

He is also a TV personality. People know him. It's more of a sign of idiocracy on a whole. He says dumb stuff to get in the news.

I can agree with the idiocracy part but what concerns me is all the idiots buying into the dumb stuff he says.

btw....Trump isn't an independent...he's a Republican. Lie down with dogs and expect to get a few fleas!

you scratchin amigo?

Did you read my post? I wouldn't vote for him.
However I am talking about his policy issues not what he is running as.

Do you even know what his platform is or are you just towing your own party line?

Trump is NOT a classic Republican.

Many of his policies are actually much closer to the Democratic platform.

I think that in general people are fed up with establishment
politicians and politicians in general.
That is why Trump who is clearly not really Republican
and Carson (who is but is not a politician) are at the top
of the polls.

People are crying out, anyone please, just not another
politician.
The political class has screwed the country up so badly
we need to try something new. No establishment politician
will ever improve the country at this point, they are all
too entrenched in fund raising and placating to really
make the changes necessary.

So for the Republicans at least, when it comes to Trump,
they don't care that he is not really religious at all.
I know it is a great surprise to many of you that Republicans
care more about getting rid of the corrupt political class
who have ruined the country than religion.

This is true. But I would argue that your points about Democrats are untrue. Most of the politicians are Christian. They may not pander to that vote bit they are not anti Christian. The only anti Christians I know are radical Atheists. Most common sense Atheists are much more just leave me alone about the topic. It's always the radicals that make the most noise.

I challenge you to name US level politicians, Senators, Congressman, etc.
who are Democrats, who are openly Christian
and who openly talk about their faith.
Politicians who claim to be Christian but never talk about
their faith or publicly acknowledge their faith outside
of political rallies (God Bless, and that sort of pap)
don't count. I'm talking about Cruz and Huckabee type
Christians who you know they are without a doubt an
unapologetic Christian.

I bet you won't be able to name a single one.

Thats absurd. How about just ones that go to church regularly and have that as their belief? What does public akwnowledgement have to do with someone's faith?

Even under your circumstance their are plenty and I am sure you know that.

If there are plenty then you won't have any trouble naming them.

If one is not willing to publicly acknowledge their faith, then
they are hiding it and ashamed of it for some reason; so they
don't count if they are ashamed or hiding it.

Going to church does not a Christian make, there are lots of
people who go to church who do it for many reasons,
business contacts, to look good in the community, because
someone drags them along.

So just saying someone goes to church, does not in any way
make someone a Christian.

A "real" Christian is not ashamed or afraid of talking about
their faith in public as a politician.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: luthier

He is also a TV personality. People know him. It's more of a sign of idiocracy on a whole. He says dumb stuff to get in the news.

I can agree with the idiocracy part but what concerns me is all the idiots buying into the dumb stuff he says.

btw....Trump isn't an independent...he's a Republican. Lie down with dogs and expect to get a few fleas!

you scratchin amigo?

Did you read my post? I wouldn't vote for him.
However I am talking about his policy issues not what he is running as.

Do you even know what his platform is or are you just towing your own party line?

No I don't know what his platform is...he seems to be making it up as he goes along depending on what kind of people are at his rallys. From what Iv'e gathered he hates Hispanics, minorities and women.

www.ontheissues.org...

a reply to: grandmakdw

Christians who you know they are without a doubt an
unapologetic Christian.

Which has no place in the White House. Or if it does, we shouldn't know about it except for the "my prayers are with the families", etc. That's it.

Oh, and Jimmy Carter managed to be a good (Dem) Christian President without wearing his religion like a crown. He kept it private.

A "real" Christian is not ashamed or afraid of talking about
their faith in public as a politician.

We disagree here. Two separate entities. Oil and water.

originally posted by: angeldoll
a reply to: grandmakdw

Anyway, your answer really tells me nothing about your fear.
They all have said lots and lots of things. What have they
said specifically that has you so afraid?

It concerns me that given half a chance they would introduce their religious beliefs into the American political arena, even moreso than the havoc they have created in Congress already..

I do not in any way respect this, or want this. I believe they will trample all over the constitution to get their personal beliefs and religiosity at the forefront and that we should fight this.

My beliefs are personal to me, and I don't want to force them on anyone, anymore than I want anybody else to force their beliefs on me. They already try to force them on people.

Specifically what mess did "they" create?

What "havoc" have they specifically created?

How have they "trampled" the constitution?

Can you be specific?

It would help rather than broad sweeping generalizations
that simply are fears rather than specific actions that
have realistically caused you to fear Christians in Congress?