The "Denmark" gambit....

a reply to: crazyewok

Oh sure....if it is a minor/ straightforward issue.

The heavy duty stuff? I highly doubt it. Nothing like some good P.R. when the occasion permits.....

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: HolgerTheDane2

Thanks for the response. Good information.

Sounds like your satisfied with your lot. A few clarifications, if you don't mind. Did you raise a family? What is you and your wife's profession? Where did you sit economically, middle class, middle-upper?

Yes I did raise a family. I have two daughters and they are now living their own lives with husbands. I have two grand children.

I work as IT and Ecomic administration in "public service". My wife is delivering mail on a Call-in basis. My salary is fixed and her salary is "no work - no pay".

I guess you could call us middle class below the middle.

My wife and I have always lived by the creed that we don't want to owe. If we want anything special we save up for it. Never borrow - except for the house.
As a family we often went without some of the nice things other families had. But you'll be surprised how much fun a family can have creating your own furniture and toys. Having a "handy man gene" helps a lot. And a good wife who accepts that some stuff doesn't look like it's made in China or Taiwan.

***snip***
The medical issue is certainly the grey area of socialism. I actually was more directing to Gov't services- and what I and many Americans-see as control.....without choice or representation.

Well - I must admit - that I find the American way very egoistic and narrow minded. How a bunch of people can call themselves a nation and then have it basically "every man for himself" is beyond my comprehension. Even our right wing acknowledges the fact that healthy people are better for society and companies.

Certainly keeping an eye on one's representatives is going to be somewhat easier in a nation of 6 million. Far less diversity to contend with as well.

Not quite. When it comes down to it there are a few basic needs that we all want and that goes for any nation no matter how many there are. Jobs, Education, Security and Health is far up the list.
Personally I think the Americans are idiots for only having the choice between right wing end extreme right wing. I know you have "lefties" as well but they are more for show and tell than anything else.

When we get news from US and read online it seems that McCarthy-ism managed to ruin your countrys spirit and it still needs to heal.
If not why is "leftist" still an insult in the media and on ATS.
Your "Token Black" cannot hide the fact that White Supremacy is still rampant.
Your difficulty with homosexuals are world renowned and we pity both those who are and tha wast amount of people who still fight them.

The basic premise of the U.S. as reflected by the Constitution is-sorry WAS reflected-restricting where and what the Federal gov't could go. Simply put stay out of my life. It's up to me or my community to make or break my life. All these people wanted was the opportunity for choice. That's all they asked for. The rest was up to them.

No - all those people want is the chance of being better than others - never equal.
A society consists of ALL citicens - not just small enclaves spread all over the nation.

***snip***
Yet the freedoms I have enjoyed for my 65 years are threatened/disappearing at an alarming rate. The kind of and quality of my medical coverage is an example.

Take a good look around you. The freedoms taken away from you are taken away by big business. And you are suckered into woting for yet another right wing party that cares little for its voters and even less for the rest.
Shouldn't a politician want what is best for the WHOLE nation? e.g. EVERYBODY?

We prefer to make our own mistakes rather than suffer gov't's mistakes.

And you biggest mistake is to think that as long as YOU are OK then everything is OK.

***snip***
When it comes to health care, it needs to be agreed upon by the majority. Not foisted by a know-best socialist elite.

How can you allow a nation of uneducated people struggling to make ends meet to decide whether they should have benefits for all or just for themselves? And when media is ruled by advertising how can the masses trust the information they get? Not to mention your appaling way of allowing a minimum wage that no one can live on. There is no mystery why so many of your population has become criminals when all you do is create the basis for becoming one.

As far as creationism being taught in the schools. well, both premises are flawed, from where I stand.

To be honest - if any contractor did such a lousy job of ANYTHING you tried to buy, you would sue his butt off from here to eternity.
How the blazed can anyone talk about the Wonder of Creation when a child gets his face eaten away by bacteria that the Good Lord created?

The problem is, Gov't prefers the big bangers as they prefer playing the role of 'God'. Deciding what is right, wrong, acceptable, unacceptable and generally engineer social views.

No thanks, I am more than capable of deciding that on my own.....

Judging from your posts - I don't think you are.
You still think socialism is bad. What you should consider is that the Good Samaritan story has some merit. With or without God.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Yes.... it is indeed time to take a grave look at Denmark.

I know we are a few Danes on this website, but here's my take on things.

Over the last 3-4 years, things have litterally gone to # over here. We have become more egostistic, more close minded, more racist and more divided. I would be EXTREMELY amazed if anyone from this point on would place us anywhere near the top place on the happyness list.

Here are a few pointers from over here:

- We had a so-called election here back in June. The democratic socialist party was the big winner, the capitalistic "Venstre" on the right side were the losers along with the conservatives. The ultra big winners were the very right winged "Danish peoples party". They like to promote themselves as "true Danes". They are closet racists.
They actually became the second largest party in the country because of their lies and rethoric during the campaign.
But here's what happened; because they are on the right side, they let "Venstre" form government.... a party that had a very bad election and basically wasn't able to form a coalition. What a joke........

- From then on, we've had the most outrageous changes I've ever seen in such a short time.

- Less "green" politics. Basically all the goals the previous government had lined up got scrapped. Amongst this is the choice of introducing taxation on electric cars again > Goodbye emission free progress.

- Rearrangement of the social budgets. Within our country we have the state, below the state we have the districts and then we have the "kommuner" which as areas around specific larger cities / towns.
Well, the government rearranged the budgets so that these kommuner now have 2% less to deal with next year. Meaning cuts... cuts where? Education, health care, service for the elderly.
Money goes where? Tax cuts for the rich and new airplanes for the erroneous airforce that most of us don't really give a damn about.

- So cuts in education = less teachers for more kids in each class. When I was in school at the age of 7 we were 22 kids for one teacher at the most. My eldest girl is in a class with 28 kids for one teacher, and since the last government in the chase for budget cuts thought it was brilliant to do something called "inclusion", teachers not only have to deal with more kids, they also have to deal with the kids who are challenged with fx. ADHD and so on.

- The elderly have a # life in public care. I'm not joking. When I get to the point where my body is unable to care for itself, I'm pulling the plug manually. My girlfriend is a social worker for the elderly, my mother in law the same, and both of them tell horrible stories about how they and their colleagues are unable to do their job properly do to lack of time... .lack of time because lack of money to hire more people.
If you are an elderly person in your own home, but cared for by the state, fx because you need help washing yourself, cleaning the apartment etc. you can expect: 12 minutes a day.................. litterally. "Hello mrs. Jensen.... goodbye mrs. Jensen."
If you are in one of the state homes and maybe you suffer from dementia, you can look forward to lying in bed in your own piss and #, because the carers down have the time or skill needed to assist a combating elderly person who thinks you are trying to hurt him, before they have to more to the next room.
Go for walks? Are you #ing kidding me?

- Politics? The desperation is visible here, especially in local politics. We more and more hear about how city councils get swayed into agreeing to over the top idiotic buliding projects because some little pissant rich guy in the construction business tossed some money under a table to some influential local politician. So far this isn't out in the open, but it's so damn obvious. Fx. my home town of Silkeborg is getting a new subsurface parking garager... why? Because money....

Government is a joke as well... we have one really red party, that have great politics, but because we live in a capitalistic country they are always outside influence. The Social Democrates are a joke.... liars all of them. Helle Thornings reign was an application to move on to bigger fields NOT to do the best for her people, and her successor Mette Frederiksen is the same. Lots of words, lots of promises but actions that tell a different story.
They actually had the oportunity to coup the current government a month or so ago, but chose to make a deal with them and saved their ass. I mean... they saved the opposition!!?? What's up with that?

- About our tax system..... if you had asked me 5 years ago, I would gladly have told you I thought it was amazing. That I had no problem paying 50% of my income to the state. Some part of me still don't mind, but it's getting worse.

The good parts (for now):
- free healthcare. No matter what happens and when, if I need hospital care, I get it for free, everything included.
- free education for my kids. Although public school is being destroyed passive aggresively, it's still free for all.
- free high school.
- free university (truth with modifications, as we have to buy our own books ofcourse)
- ON TOP of free UNI, we get paid to study during our time of study. A subsidy everyone gets for the exact amount of months the study is planned to take. I think it's stil around 800 dollars a month.
- Up until 6 months ago, we got huge rebates on dentistry. Now we have to be classified in red, yellow and green which denotes how many "cheap" service visits we get before having to pay the full price.
- Transportation tax deduction. I can deduct x amount of money from my tax return based on how many kilometres I have to work. I my case I actually make money using public transportation to work.
- Child/family subsidy. All parents get x amount of money for having kids. We get the same amount for each kid, which is then phased out until they are 18.
- Hugely subsidised childcare. I think a child costs the "kommune" around 1400 dollars a month. Of those we only pay around 600 dollars, the rest in on the house. If we have more kids, the cheapest kids is half price.
- free dentistry for everyone until they turn 18. Including the need for bracers etc.


The bad:
- We are rocking the lowest birthrate in Denmark since ever (almost). This is straining the tax income.
- Which makes it even worse that the latest state decissions means that more money go to the rich and warfare.
- Venstre is in love with capitalism. As such while other EU countries are banning Monsanto, the current Danish government is letting them in. It was only just in the last minute that the minister of farming and environment (talk about contradicting branches) got vetoed by the other members of parliament.
- Venstre hates green efforts. Just today Siemens windenergy more or less told the Danish government to get their act together or they have to move on.....
- Tesla told Denmark to get its act together, because of the upcoming tax increase on electric cars.
- Today Venstre announced that the coming budget discussions were open only to those who would accept that the coming changes in the police reform would be made by taking money from education. Talk about holding a gun to peoples heads.


So no! Denmark is not the #.... it's not the promised land. It has become a racist sesspool of greedy selfabsorbed little know it alls that doesn't even want to pull its weight in the refugee crisis.

Oh... and I didn't even comment on all the # that you have to fight through if you are unfortunate enough to lose your job in Denmark......... By the way, the latest reform just made it worse to finish you education and end up without a job.

And while I did mention free health care, the last few years, it's become very obvious that the health care system also is being passive aggressively destroyed, since more and more nurses and midwives are testifying that they honestly don't think they are able to do their job properly under the current conditions.
Ofcouse there is always room to pay more for the medicine that the hospitals need from Big Pharma.

The refugee crisis is a huge stain on our moral image, especially since our hands are as dirty as the US's hands are in terms of assisting in the unlawful invasions and imposing of democracy in North Africa and the middle east.

But hey, we have a freaking mermaid and we have Carlsberg, Tuborg and Lego right?! Sigh.....

a reply to: flice Thanks for the feedback.

a reply to: HolgerTheDane2

I won't bother rebutting your post. obviously we are at similar levels at similar points in our lives. (One daughter, two grandchildren.)

A career gov't employee, I see. Yes, I can see how you'd be loyal to that mechanism.

As far as the "you' comment, the view here, to a much higher percentile than Denmark, is the ultimate 'minority' is ONE. You. Me.

When a gov't imposes on 70% of 'ones' the views of 30% then you will have trouble. That's the simplicity of the current U.S. political clime.

To put it in perspective. your Demark, is much like one of our 'states'. There are 50 of them. Our Washington, D.C., is not unlike your EU gov't.

Our EU is telling our 'Denmark's how to think and conduct our lives. Imagine the Italians gaining power over your EU and telling you to become Catholics...Again..... You wouldn't like it would you.

I'm omitting the factor of whether you agree with one viewpoint or not as sooner or later someone will tread on your toes, what you like, as apparently is occurring in Denmark now based on your diatribe....

As far as your creationist comments, I'm not fully in disagreement with you. If there is a creator, he certainly is not 'minding the store', so to speak....

What I see in your views is arrogance.....sorry, I can't think of a politer and still accurate description. What you see as the right thing, other don't see it that way. That's human nature....as is your hubris in thinking your way IS the right way and desire to impose it on ...say Italy....

I want you to know I completely support Denmark being Denmark. Period. Your people's call...NOT MINE.

That basically is the flaw with the EU which was created for financial purposes as senior to regional issues. Also, PERIOD.

It will fail.

I now believe the U.S. will also fail. The Constitution which protected the 'Denmarks' of the U.S. is now ignored, marginalized and trash-binned....except during election cycles, of course.

Bottom line? Your Denmark is my 'state'. Yours should be able to conduct business as it and it's people see fit. Not on anyone else's idea of what is fit. At a guess, the phenomena that you complain about that is now occurring in Denmark is nothing more than others seeing things differently than you.

Your taxation on electric cars is a perfect example. I can almost assure you that the financers of the 'electric car people have made a fortune on that tax break. I'd be safe in assuming that those same individuals supported the 'Social Democrats'.

The pendulum swings....

I've been reading that, sure it's not free, but the cost of medical they pay is "free". Yes they're taxed for it, but the overall cost is lower than what we pay.

I'm having trouble finding a good solid breakdown.

Denmark has higher taxes but the people appear to be overall wealthier and better off than us, with poverty levels lower than here as well.

It still seems to be a "gambit" worth taking. In chess, a gambit is something you give up or sacrifice to enable you to get an advantage some other way. You may lose a big piece like your Queen (Higher Taxes) but you get a development advantage, more options to attack and actually win the game. (more disposable income than we have, better healthcare and a higher quality of life).

Yes, yes, yes, I realize that we are not them, but we can evolve a little bit as a country and adopt some similar policies.

a reply to: amazing

I have zero disagreement with your assessment.....except for one huge point. They want it, they have it. Much like Mass. with Romney Care. Each non-state/nation in the EU seems to be deciding that for themselves. Not enforced by the EU...so far, on everyone else who doesn't want it.

70% in the U.S. don't want the ACA...which is totally different than Free medical. The ACA is enforced! Simple.

Let each state decide for themselves if they want it or not and leave the rest be. It's fair. It reflects the wishes of each state's citizens.

Freedom of choice is an issue...apparently less and less, these days, but I'm not letting that one go and apparently neither is the majority....

The thing is.... Our country could have been great had it not been for the internal market forces of the EU. Along with the tendency to privatise everything. Just look at the latest sale of our major energy company to GoldmannSachs...

I remember reading that the founding fathers of the early union had every intend to create USE but that they also knew they had to feed the public the poison in small pieces so we wouldnt notice.

Today the major red party of the government said they were open for privatising parts of law enforcement......... Talk about an anti red thing to do.
The last thing we need is people on a private payrole with authority.

If you want a model socialist state then look to Norway.

Me and the mrs are considering to uproot our family and move up there instead.

In copenhagen the population goes nuts over 1 car free sunday next year. In Oslo the city council is banning cars completely.
Hows that for contrast for ya

a reply to: flice

"The last thing we need is people on a private payrole with authority".

Why? The views here are gov'ts tend to screw things up. At least with private ownership one has a gov't that has oversite which mitigates the conduct of those businesses. It's called balance...

When gov't runs things-just another form of a Corporation- who is the oversite for the gov't? Hard for the people to be the overseers when that gov't withholds it data from the people.

A different way of looking at it, I suppose.

The view here is Europe never really left the feudal system. The difference being the name. Yes, todays version is better in that the serfs are better kept. What seems to be forgotten is the same group/people hold the same power, be it corporate, royalty, banking....whatever, as in the day.

Their power even more entrenched than ever. Your options less than ever. Better kept? Sure.

While the 'feudal system never truly left the U.S., the concepts of individual liberty never really died either, fading, yes, but the remaining 'die-hards' are more vocal than ever.

Social programs and awareness are different from 'socialism'. I assure you what works for Denmark and Norway wouldn't necessarily work elsewhere. Choice is paramount in workability.

What works for , say, 6 million doesn't always work for 300 plus million. Too much diversity, too much enforcement on those that disagree.

Balance is the key, between the two seems the better solution. Where that balance is??? LOL There's the problem...

a reply to: nwtrucker

Not every country like the USA has out of control poorly trained Yahoo's as police.

The idea of a privatised police force is abhorrent to most of us this side of the Atlantic.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Because once you start privatising you open the door to a division in society between rich and poor... heck even between lower and upper middleclass. This is unacceptable!

The passive aggressive attack on the school system here in Denmark is to make parents "choose" private schooling because the government sucks out the money of the public school system.
But as soon as you create things like private schools and private police forces, those who pay more get more.

And NO ONE is more entitled to better protection or more education. NO ONE!

See that's the problem. That's where your balance comes in, because the idea of the land of oportunity etc. is that the balance should be kept on a long stick rather than short stick. (imagine a stick balacing on a rock)

The stick should be as short as possible so that the differences between people is kept as small as possible.

Earth is not going anywhere, so there's absolutely no reason what so ever to progress as fast as possible. To generate as much growth as possible.
The notion of that is created and kept alive by greedy #s who thinks that what they are doing matters more.
The truth is... nothing anyone is doing matters more than anything else.
We all have the same rights to get educated, to get cared for, to be safe. And once you start removing those rights, you create a scared angry uneducated group of people.

In the long run, they will come looking for you if you are on the far end of the long stick, and by all means I would let them have you and do as they please if it means that the stick grows shorter.

originally posted by: flice
a reply to: nwtrucker

Because once you start privatising you open the door to a division in society between rich and poor... heck even between lower and upper middleclass. This is unacceptable!

The passive aggressive attack on the school system here in Denmark is to make parents "choose" private schooling because the government sucks out the money of the public school system.
But as soon as you create things like private schools and private police forces, those who pay more get more.

And NO ONE is more entitled to better protection or more education. NO ONE!

See that's the problem. That's where your balance comes in, because the idea of the land of oportunity etc. is that the balance should be kept on a long stick rather than short stick. (imagine a stick balacing on a rock)

The stick should be as short as possible so that the differences between people is kept as small as possible.

Earth is not going anywhere, so there's absolutely no reason what so ever to progress as fast as possible. To generate as much growth as possible.
The notion of that is created and kept alive by greedy #s who thinks that what they are doing matters more.
The truth is... nothing anyone is doing matters more than anything else.
We all have the same rights to get educated, to get cared for, to be safe. And once you start removing those rights, you create a scared angry uneducated group of people.

In the long run, they will come looking for you if you are on the far end of the long stick, and by all means I would let them have you and do as they please if it means that the stick grows shorter.

My goodness! What an enlightening post!

I gasp at the foresight of my ancestors leaving Europe!

I will rebut with my view on this. We are not ants. We are not bees. Homogenize humanity into some currently vogue conformity by individuals who assume the mantle of a deity is a direct contradiction of your premise as those individuals, obviously, consider themselves above, over and superior to...everyone else. (Without doubt, arrogant beyond belief).

We are NOT equal in any way, shape or form. Different abilities, talents, motivations, purposes, drive, I.Q. creativity, compassion....the list is almost endless. 'Equal' is at best an arithmetical concept. It doesn't exist in the real world whatsoever.

I would not be judged nor forced into accepting anyone else's concept of an optimum human being...or any other label you prefer.

I would fight it with every fiber of my being. At any and all levels,

I can only say I find your post and the mentality behind it repugnant. Otherwise, I am quite confident your efforts will fail, not without price or set-backs, but it will fail.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
We are NOT equal in any way, shape or form. Different abilities, talents, motivations, purposes, drive, I.Q. creativity, compassion....the list is almost endless.

Lol. the poster you replied to said none of that.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
***snip***

A career gov't employee, I see. Yes, I can see how you'd be loyal to that mechanism.

I said "Public Service" - not government. Actually it is the public library sector and in my opinion there are no finer Public Service to be had. We are there to help pople get information with the filter of professionals who know how to sort the chaff from the wheat. We know how to do it and we are not afraid to use it.

***snip***

To put it in perspective. your Demark, is much like one of our 'states'. There are 50 of them. Our Washington, D.C., is not unlike your EU gov't.

Our EU is telling our 'Denmark's how to think and conduct our lives. Imagine the Italians gaining power over your EU and telling you to become Catholics...Again....

. You wouldn't like it would you.

Point taken. Will reflect on that.

***snip***

What I see in your views is arrogance.....sorry, I can't think of a politer and still accurate description.

Sometimes the "know better" actually have a point. And yes I suppose you could call me arrogant. I just have little patience with some of the stuff on here. Especially when socialism and leftist is a swear word. I happen to think that a healthy dose of both camps are best.

***snip***
Your taxation on electric cars is a perfect example. I can almost assure you that the financers of the 'electric car people have made a fortune on that tax break. I'd be safe in assuming that those same individuals supported the 'Social Democrats'.

To be fair - the Tesla electric cars are at the moment tax excempt from the famous 180% tax. And The Tesla cars that we are discussing still costs more WITHOUT the tax than mid range cars that are taxed 180%
So what happens is that the cars that only the rich can afford will be taxed in a way that they still can afford.

When electric cars are down in price and performance/range I'm sure we are back in a leftist government and they will loosen tax on the cheaper models benefitting "normal" people.

Apart from that I reluctantly have to agree with most of what Flice wrote.
What he didn't mention is the vast amount of people who are unemployed by choice. Often because there is no job they want. There are jobs to be had, just not the job they want. Shamefully one of my daughters is one of them.
(hmmm. If there was a way to not support them too much and support more those who really need it).

The Danish Peoples Party is - as mentioned - a disgrace on Denmark. Much as your Republican party (oops I did it again)

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: nwtrucker
We are NOT equal in any way, shape or form. Different abilities, talents, motivations, purposes, drive, I.Q. creativity, compassion....the list is almost endless.

Lol. the poster you replied to said none of that.

I think he just wanted a bash denmark/RAR RAR RAR USA is best bow before us thread.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: nwtrucker
We are NOT equal in any way, shape or form. Different abilities, talents, motivations, purposes, drive, I.Q. creativity, compassion....the list is almost endless.

Lol. the poster you replied to said none of that.

I was certainly implied....and the logical conclusion based on the premise..

originally posted by: HolgerTheDane2

originally posted by: nwtrucker
***snip***

A career gov't employee, I see. Yes, I can see how you'd be loyal to that mechanism.

I said "Public Service" - not government. Actually it is the public library sector and in my opinion there are no finer Public Service to be had. We are there to help pople get information with the filter of professionals who know how to sort the chaff from the wheat. We know how to do it and we are not afraid to use it.

***snip***

To put it in perspective. your Demark, is much like one of our 'states'. There are 50 of them. Our Washington, D.C., is not unlike your EU gov't.

Our EU is telling our 'Denmark's how to think and conduct our lives. Imagine the Italians gaining power over your EU and telling you to become Catholics...Again....

. You wouldn't like it would you.

Point taken. Will reflect on that.

***snip***

What I see in your views is arrogance.....sorry, I can't think of a politer and still accurate description.

Sometimes the "know better" actually have a point. And yes I suppose you could call me arrogant. I just have little patience with some of the stuff on here. Especially when socialism and leftist is a swear word. I happen to think that a healthy dose of both camps are best.

Actually on that point I agree with you. Where that healthy dose lies and where to draw that lines is the problem.
***snip***
Your taxation on electric cars is a perfect example. I can almost assure you that the financers of the 'electric car people have made a fortune on that tax break. I'd be safe in assuming that those same individuals supported the 'Social Democrats'.

To be fair - the Tesla electric cars are at the moment tax excempt from the famous 180% tax. And The Tesla cars that we are discussing still costs more WITHOUT the tax than mid range cars that are taxed 180%
So what happens is that the cars that only the rich can afford will be taxed in a way that they still can afford.

When electric cars are down in price and performance/range I'm sure we are back in a leftist government and they will loosen tax on the cheaper models benefitting "normal" people.

Apart from that I reluctantly have to agree with most of what Flice wrote.
What he didn't mention is the vast amount of people who are unemployed by choice. Often because there is no job they want. There are jobs to be had, just not the job they want. Shamefully one of my daughters is one of them.
(hmmm. If there was a way to not support them too much and support more those who really need it).

The Danish Peoples Party is - as mentioned - a disgrace on Denmark. Much as your Republican party (oops I did it again)

It is a quandary when one sets a program to help people and it ends up taking away incentive to work. As far as the Republican slip... in the last two Federal elections, those national disgrace Republicans have taken around 1400 elected seats away from the Democrats. I must conclude your news feeds from the U.S. must be taken from the left controlled media....

a reply to: crazyewok

No, I know the best is British. They can do no wrong, commit no sin and look down their noses equally at everyone else...

a reply to: HolgerTheDane2

Now I'm a bit confused. Is your libraries not owned and operated by the gov't? They are privately held?