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Ancient Egyptians in America? The Burrows Cave Mysteries, Illinois

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posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 08:22 AM
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I've seen this subject come up from time to time but thought this video we recently made might shed some new light to what is a fascinating mystery.

A brief overview-artefacts found in a cave in rural Illinois in the early 20th Century have led some to believe that Cleopatra (yes that one) and a large retinue escaped from Egypt and journeyed to North America to live out their lives. According to some theories she sailed across the Atlantic, then up the Mississippi eventually settling not far from present day Olney, Illinois.

As you'd imagine this is a extraordinary claim and has been controversial from the start. We went and met one of the foremost authorities on the subject, Harry Hubbard and he explained the theories and what he believes really happened. Think of the video as a primer to one of those mysteries, like Oak Island, where fact and fiction are never far apart. Hope you enjoy!





posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 09:03 AM
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a reply to: Unionfeatures

Thanks for posting, very very interesting story to me anyways. I will look into this more. That was a great interview with a real knowledgeable character Harry Hubbard.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 09:13 AM
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Thanks Skywatcher44. It really is a fascinating subject. Harry, as you say, was very knowledgeable.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 09:21 AM
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a reply to: Unionfeatures

Didn't America unearthed with Scott Wolter documentaries covered this controversy? I love that program and he presents prove of dates using forensic geology.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 09:25 AM
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a reply to: Unionfeatures

Thanks for sharing . The guy seems to be genuine ,and telling the truth . What that truth is ,is something that our present history books don't touch on ,but ,no big surprise there . This kind of story would rock many peoples world but I am not one of them . Like he said ,it would be great to read the story from a book that has been put together in a good way . It's the first I have heard of this story . tks


+18 more 
posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 09:32 AM
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I wish there was something other than "watch my 30 minute video and you'll just be SO convinced!" A link to a website where those who can't view video (often a problem with tablets and phones) and people with vision problems or people who don't want to sit through 30 minutes of film can find the information.

I found material here: www.illinoiscaves.com...
and here: www.illinoiscaves.com...

And a rather interesting piece here that says there isn't a cave and that the artifacts appear to have been carved by one person: illinoiscaves.com...

Wikipedia has an article on this, which makes the tale appear to be even more of a mess: en.wikipedia.org...

Book written by Burroughs: www.illinoiscaves.com...

And the pictures of the "artifacts" here are very clearly modern fakes by someone who hasn't studied ancient art: www.illinoiscaves.com...

...like this "cartouche" which contains No Real Hieroglyphs and whose writer doesn't realize that the basket on top of the cartouche is part of another word (usually "Lord of Appearances) often written above the name of the ruler.

Or this "Egyptian priest" who is not dressed like ANY Egyptian or Roman or Etruscan priest and who is not carrying any emblems they carried (and the proportions are wrong)www.illinoiscaves.com...

And this which is apparently supposed to be an ushabti but is actually a carved stone by someone who likes Egyptian art but is in too much of a hurry to actually study any: www.illinoiscaves.com...


And finally, on Acaddemia.edu, a rather nice scholarly paper that summarizes the claims (which, mind you, keep changing) and discusses the problem presented by phantom finds: "The Cave Who Never Was"

Bio of the person who claims that because of his extensive background in obscure languages, he's the only person in the world qualified to translate the Mysterious Scripts of the cave. www.illinoiscaves.com...


To summarize, someone claims to have found a cave (that they won't show to people but their poof is photos of themselves inside a cave (which might or might not be that cave). Inside the cave they claim to have found a number of artifacts from certain famous people and times. The artifacts are of the wrong style, the stone material appears to be freshly carved, and the writing is wrong - though the person whose bio is linked and who claims to be an expert in many languages says that the writing's right.




edit on 25-10-2015 by Byrd because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-10-2015 by Byrd because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 09:35 AM
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marg60343—yes, Harry Hubbard did mention that he had been on the show.

the2ofusr1, glad you enjoyed. It would make a great book or long form article. A fascinating subject indeed.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 09:35 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

My oh, my, glad to see you around here bringing your expertise as usual, I missed you Byrd, actually I have been missing so many older members that no longer grace this site with their presence.

Glad to see you.

and thanks for that explanation .



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 09:42 AM
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a reply to: Byrd
No cave? Then why was there an editor of a well known American magazine, an unknown archaeologist, and an investor here in 2008, trying to pump out water, and excavate in that non-existent cave covertly? And I'm not going just by hearsay. I live 50 miles from that cave, and these men were staying at a motel in one of the surrounding towns. I know it, because I was tipped off by someone, and saw it for myself.

There is so much crap information out there about the Burrows cave, mixed in with a small percentage of truth, that it's hard to say what is real, and what isn't. What I do know, is someone put up a lot of money in 2008 to get into that cave, and didn't want the public or the authorities to know about it.
edit on 10/25/2015 by Klassified because: editor, not author



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 10:22 AM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Byrd
No cave? Then why was there an author of a well known American magazine, an unknown archaeologist, and an investor here in 2008, trying to pump out water, and excavate in that non-existent cave covertly? And I'm not going just by hearsay. I live 50 miles from that cave, and these men were staying at a motel in one of the surrounding towns. I know it, because I was tipped off by someone, and saw it for myself.


I was just linking material that I found, but I will note that show runners and reality show producers will hunt down all sorts of things to get audiences to watch. So presence of a show isn't really convincing to me.

As I understand it, the area is limestone, so there are a lot of caves there (including undocumented caves.) The question would be "is it the real cave or is it another cave?"

Showcaves lists it as fake: www.showcaves.com...


There is so much crap information out there about the Burrows cave, mixed in with a small percentage of truth, that it's hard to say what is real, and what isn't. What I do know, is someone put up a lot of money in 2008 to get into that cave, and didn't want the public or the authorities to know about it.


If it's for that show, there would have been a lot of folks who knew about it. These shows carry insurance, and the providers would have to know it. In order to get their people in the cave, they have to have safety procedures... and so forth and so on.

Real proof would be artifacts that are clearly identifiable from a particular time period and are not hoaxed along with other supporting material.

This piece indicates some problems with the scholars who supported it www.criticalenquiry.org...


But... for the sake of argument... let's say that (fictional person, fictional scenario) Egyptian military captain and explorer Ba-Hotep (who served under Anthony) managed to get four of his ships blown off course and ended up in America. And further for the sake of argument, let's say that they managed to land during the summer (and didn't freeze their Egyptian selves and clothing to death) and managed to survive hiking over 700 miles to Illinois with the help of friendly Indian tribes, where they then come across this cave. And their chief dies so they have to bury him... so...

In order to make and leave the things they had there:
* the entire crew had to be illiterate - or at least they had to be people who didn't speak Egyptian or any of the languages of the Mediterranean (the "deciphered writing" has a distinctly English bias to the sentence structure)
* They also had to haul along (and not lose) Italian marble slabs
* while lugging hundreds of pounds of gold artifacts and not losing them -OR- mine gold along the way and set up a forge and place for their very badly trained goldsmiths once they reached the cave... a forge that's in some place that's now been covered up completely.
* they all had to be unfamilar with dress and symbols of Egyptian gods (this is NOT an Egyptian deity or spirit) I think that's supposed to be Sekhmet, but I wouldn't swear to it. This, however, IS Sekhmet
* the sculptors had to be unfamiliar with Egyptian clothing (which is kind of odd since Egyptians are involved) (the person in this object is not wearing Egyptian clothing
* not know what coffins of that period or previous periods looked like (in fact, no Egyptian coffin ever looked like this). Egyptian coffins varied in shape and style over the 5,000 year history and are acually quite distinctive and can be assigned eras on the basis of art style.
* be completely unfamiliar with ushabtis (which look like this)
* none of the survivors would have been priests (the burials described are completely inappropriate)
* their artists would have to be illiterate in Egyptian hieroglyphs and in Greek or Roman writing yet "literate" in a writing system not used anywhere else and that has the structure of modern English.
* they would have had to give up their bronze swords and axes (which they learned to make and buy during the Hyksos invasion in the New Kingdom (1500 BC) and instead use marble maces for unknown reasons (marble isn't as good a mace as flint, chert, or many other things.)
* They would have forgotten what Anubis looked like and what he did no jackal headed deity or spirit looked like this, even during Roman times) For the curious, this is how the Romans depicted Anubis -- very distinct from the the Egyptian style
...etc.


Footnote for those of you who like rabbit holes: this page at the bottom documents a REALLY strange bit with Goodwill and "treasures" painted with gold paint: www.flavinscorner.com...
edit on 25-10-2015 by Byrd because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-10-2015 by Byrd because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 10:22 AM
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originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: Byrd

My oh, my, glad to see you around here bringing your expertise as usual, I missed you Byrd, actually I have been missing so many older members that no longer grace this site with their presence.

Glad to see you.

and thanks for that explanation .


Glad to see you, Marg! I've been busy. Still am, but hope to have a little time at least around this forum.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 10:49 AM
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a reply to: Byrd
I didn't say anything about a "show" Byrd. I said a magazine. Nevertheless, I understand you taking the angle you are. You weren't there, and I'm not going to name names, or give other information for my own safety. But I can tell you this was not done for publicity or television. They were after something they were strongly convinced was/is there. Whether or not they got it, I don't know.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 11:05 AM
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It seems really haoky to me... The "artifacts" I was shown (very few) on the different sites posted and the video seemed fake as heck. Also, he doesn't seem anymore knowledgeable on the subject than any layman. Another curious bit of info. On the illinoiscaves.com or whatever it was site, there's no pictures of any of the priceless pieces being sold around the world or even the cave itself? In my opinion nobodies taking Harry Hubbard serious because its pretty obvious he's just some crazy hick trying to make a buck.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 11:05 AM
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a reply to: Klassified




I live 50 miles from that cave


So do I.
Why have these men gone to so much trouble to change names over the years and hide their past?

www.flavinscorner.com...

In the autumn of 1994 an extremist group of Burrows' 'cave' believers emerged, fronted by two young men from Florida (hereafter: "The Kids”), Paul Kelly (a.k.a. Schaffranke) and Brian “Harry” Hubbard (a.k.a. Horatio Rybnikar). Paul and Harry claimed they could read the hodgepodge of ancient alphabets on the inscribed stones as a previously unknown combination of Latin and Etruscan. They believed the inscriptions described a voyage from the Old World to ancient Illinois by various minor historical personages and which, perhaps, included the New World reburial of the revered corpse of Alexander the Great. Yup, The Kids claimed the “lost” tomb of Alexander the Great was located in southern Illinois, and that Burrows had discovered and subsequently plundered it. What made The Kids and their group extremist, beside their laughable historical reconstruction and silly attempts at decipherment, were their relentless attacks against anyone who disagreed with them and their constant solicitation of money. They appeared to spend the majority of their time seeking investors and peddling home-made video-tapes. Though a dysfunctional duo, Kelly seems to have done the geek work, with Hubbard playing the freak. Greed aside, the extreme arrogance and viciousness of Hubbard are his most defining character traits, unheard of before (at least to such a degree) in the amateur archaeology and diffusionist community, with the possible exception of Russ Burrows.

Hubbard also shares with Burrows a complete disdain for the opinions of interested amateurs and professionals. Their style of debate follows a consistent line. Whenever their fantastic claims are not greeted with total acceptance, they will question the doubter's education as well as his or her political and religious beliefs. They often challenge skeptics to disprove their fantastic claims and when that fails, they attack with vugar epithets and slurs aimed at sexual orientation. Annoyed with Hubbard’s arrogance during our first telephone conversation, I threatened to “bitch-slap” him up alongside of his head if ever we met face-to-face. Hubbard is a punk and has this effect on most people. I hung up on him, he wrote a letter (Rybnikar ‘Hubbard’ 1994), and continues to stay in contact with me. As with Burrows: keep your friends close and your enemies


Take the time to read the whole article. It is an eye opener.
edit on 25-10-2015 by DAVID64 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 11:27 AM
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a reply to: DAVID64
I've read this article before, when I was researching this mess years ago. But they aren't the guys that were down here. As I eluded to above. Sorting fact from fiction regarding Burrows cave is near impossible at this point. A lot of shady characters have been involved in it, to be sure. Problem is, academia knows less about it than we do. Which I fault Russell for. He should have done the right thing from the beginning, and allowed it to be excavated properly. Though a part of me doesn't blame him for not trusting them.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 11:42 AM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Byrd
No cave? Then why was there an editor of a well known American magazine, an unknown archaeologist, and an investor here in 2008, trying to pump out water, and excavate in that non-existent cave covertly?


If there was an editor of a well known magazine and an archeologist there seven years ago why has there been no big article or scholarly paper since then? If they were there they must not have found anything.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 12:09 PM
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originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Byrd
No cave? Then why was there an editor of a well known American magazine, an unknown archaeologist, and an investor here in 2008, trying to pump out water, and excavate in that non-existent cave covertly?


If there was an editor of a well known magazine and an archeologist there seven years ago why has there been no big article or scholarly paper since then? If they were there they must not have found anything.

Why do you assume they found nothing? Maybe they found exactly what they were looking for.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 12:10 PM
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a reply to: Byrd
Wow that's odd to see my cousin Rick flavin flavinscorner linked on ATS.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 12:23 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

What language is it?
They are saying it's Ptolmec(sic)
edit on 25-10-2015 by cavtrooper7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 12:36 PM
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originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: Unionfeatures

Didn't America unearthed with Scott Wolter documentaries covered this controversy? I love that program and he presents prove of dates using forensic geology.



Unfortunately, I find his show to be rather pre-ordained. I feel that there is an "agenda"...not so much that it is any covert attempt at debunking...rather, I feel the show goes into "mysteries" with the mindset that they'll prove something wrong.

Honestly, it's much the same of what I see with MythBusters.

"Oh, so...you don't believe SCIENCE????"



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