TA-ATTACKS: Renewed Attacks in Iraq, Intelligence Chief: 200,000 Insurgents

Sixteen Iraqi's have been killed in attacks across the country on Monday. At interim Prime Minister Allawi's offices in Baghdad a suicide bomber set off an explosion that killed to policeman and a civilian. In Tikrit six Iraqi soldiers were killed at a roadblock. These attacks are in the wake of the Iraqi Intelligence Minister Abdullah Shahwani saying that the "insurgency is bigger than US military in Iraq.



The other attacks that have occured on Monday are as follows:

* Four Iraqi soldiers were killed when a car bomb struck a checkpoint outside a US military base in Balad

* Two Iraqi security officers were gunned down at a checkpoint in the town of Baiji

* A suspected car bomb blew up in Baghdad near the heavily fortified Green Zone, the US' administrative base. There was no immediate confirmation of casualties

* A policeman died in the northern city of Mosul when he tried to remove a booby-trapped beheaded body which then exploded.

With the January 30th elections rapidly approaching insurgents have greatly stepped up their attacks in attempts to disrupt the election. Iraq Sunni's don't support the election, and militant groups have pledged to attack voters. In an attempt to woo the Sunnis into the election process the Iraqi Defense Minister has said that they would push the election date back.

I think there will be a lot of Maalox bought inside the Beltway on the 30th.

[edit on 3-1-2005 by Banshee]

``

General Shahwani'..."the resistance is bigger than the US military in Iraq"
is both a message and indicator that he is a very Quick Study & Maestro
in the 'Politics of Fear'....


(*)

In a country where a foreign power is militarily occupying their territory and imposing an "electoral" process with their candidate assured victory?

Seems like a low number to me.

Iraq

Population:

24,001,816 (July 2002 est.)

Population growth rate:

2.82% (2002 est.)

X 2 years = 24,678,667

www.nationbynation.com...

200,000 divided by 24,678,667 = 0.008 (rounded)

The opposition represents 1/8000th of the population!

One in 8000 ?

The plurality the MSM keeps representing in pictures and deeds would make one believe the numbers to be reversed.

Goes to show what a few (very few in relation to population) thugs with bombs can do to lather up the media.

That number only counts Iraqi Military who remain loyal to Saddam and pure nationalists who are fighting to throw America out. That number doesn't count the Shi'ite army that's already taken up position along 600 miles of American supply lines through the desert. I've heard numbers between 1k and 1m estimated in that army. They have no loyalty to Saddam Hussein, rather they are religious hardliners who see America as the Great Satan, they wish to bait, trap, and destroy us.

Thanks to the greed of our elected officials and the men who hold their chains, we are overextended and surrounded by a larger army in one of the least hospitable places on earth..(deep breath) with insufficient fuel and water for the long haul. The folks in Washington screwed us big time, this time. If our entire force in the middle east gets wiped out, what then? Are we then going to hold them accountable? No, probably not, because it will be too late, and some other ambitious nation will be on our doorstep ready to clean up our mess for us.

When is some good news going to come out of Iraq? And I don't want to see any pictures of American marines handing out candy to children, that's not the kind of 'goodwill' I had in mind. How does a marine in Iraq perceive the population there?

I hear the grumblings of my friendly neighborhood marines daily, every time a spectre strafes a civilian population, all four barrells lighting up the night, the grumblings get louder. Dishonor, shame! Buncha kids who don't know nothin' about death, killing other kids who are just trying to protect their country. And they're the one's who are gonna win, it's written in their faces. They're fighting with righteousness, our boys are fighting with guilt. How can we ever win that kind of war? I didn't think the people'd let themselves get dragged into another Vietnam, but it's too late now isn't it? Mosul might as well be Dien Bien Phu, wait and see. I hope there is no justice for those of us who know what's wrong and do nothing to stop it.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

I hear the grumblings of my friendly neighborhood marines daily, every time a spectre strafes a civilian population, all four barrells lighting up the night, the grumblings get louder. Dishonor, shame! Buncha kids who don't know nothin' about death, killing other kids who are just trying to protect their country. And they're the one's who are gonna win, it's written in their faces. They're fighting with righteousness, our boys are fighting with guilt. How can we ever win that kind of war? I didn't think the people'd let themselves get dragged into another Vietnam, but it's too late now isn't it? Mosul might as well be Dien Bien Phu, wait and see. I hope there is no justice for those of us who know what's wrong and do nothing to stop it.

Haven't heard such a perfectly pessimistic line like this since the sixties, my hats off to you

- you have singlehandedly driven the point home that the opposition in Iraq wants the American people to believe.

They too read history and learn from it...............Hence they know if they cannot win on the field of battle against the American military, then surely history taught them many Americans are weak of will and can be beaten at home by swaying public opinion against their own soldiers mission.

Propaganda IS a very powerful tool.

They're fighting with righteousness, our boys are fighting with guilt.

Yes you may find some soldiers claiming the above, they are just as much in the minority as the opposition is in Iraq.

How many claims such as this can you quote out of ALL those who have or continue to serve in Iraq ?

More than one in ten thousand? - doubt it myself.

As far as Iraq turning into a Vietnam is concerned - its not going to happen.

The only Vietnamization going on is here at home.





[edit on 3-1-2005 by Phoenix]

Phoenix

I don't doubt your good intentions, I doubt your perspective. I am an American. I was born here, I've worked and lived here all my life. There is no other place I'd rather be. I think you are mistaken when you assume that the 'terrorists' have the ability to sway the publics opinion. The public is so deluged with contrary information and outright lies, they can hardly see straight. Hitler wearing a clown suit and painted up in black face could win over the people of this country right now, they're so mistreated and desperate for a change.

I think you're forgetting a large portion of my argument, which is that many people just don't know any better, and that includes the military demographic. A lot of those kids out there are playing heavy metal and whooping it up while pumping high calibre bullets into the opposition. They really don't grasp what they're engaged in, if they did, it might not be happening. Unfortunately, upon returning home (those that are 'lucky enough' to make it back) our men and women in uniform will have to come to grips with what they've done, and many won't be able to handle the realization. Troops coming home will have a strange look in their eyes, the thousand yard stare, and will exhibit a greater incidence of mental illness.

Do our soldiers realize that they're putting their lives in harms way so that fat, white, beligerent power mongers can prosper? No soldier sitting in his living room in Mobile or Indianapolis is going to have his quality of life affected in any way by Arabs in the gulf, that is, until he makes the decision to go over there and kill them for money. Where is the sense in sacrificing for an entity who does not sacrifice for you? That non reciprocal transaction is no way to run a country, unless you're trying to run it into the ground.

You say Iraq is not Vietnam? Let's agree to disagree, until the footage later this year, or next, or a decade from now, showing the last American serviceman in Iraq being evacuated from the embassy by chopper, to the jeers of the crowd, and the chatter of kalashnikovs. The parralels are countless between Vietnam and Iraq, I was even thinking of starting a post to that effect. It's too much for this post, already a mammoth, I'm sure we'll have the discussion another time, or in this thread, if it's not too off topic, Mr. Mod.

I'm so sick of being called unpatriotic I could bust! I care about the fate of this country, the fate of our species, the fate of the world, as much as anyone, more than most. Damn the man who says otherwise. I see it day in, day out, more people so sure of their version of reality they are willing to kill for it. Have you ever trained men to kill Phoenix? Have you ever heard the conversations, about food, and girls, and music that go on in barracks. Those soldiers don't want any part of war, or carnage, or blood, until it's stuffed down their throats, and then, the sickest part is, they can't get enough! They develop a bloodlust that drives them to the extremes we saw in Mai Lai. The extreme we saw in Abu Ghraib.. The marines flying the gunships, laying down carpets of DU and HE, do they think about the women and children cowering under their beds and in basements? Of course not! They're not trained to think! They're trained to kill!

I'm not a big fan of hippies, but at least they didn't think so highly of themselves that they were willing to invade sovereign nations and wreak havoc. Sure they smell like patchouli, and I hate patchouli, but it beats Cordite and track grease.

I have no connection whatsoever to active servicemen and women. I can only base my opinions on observation and logic. I haven't heard their opinions except snippets from biased sources like the Pentagon and Michael Moore. I don't know what they want to do. But I'm pretty sure that if they had any idea how twisted the rationale behind this war has become, if they really grasped the consequences of their actions, they would either bring up their commanders on charges or frag 'em and be done with it.

In closing, I just want the troops home. I think they have been used, and are tired, sick of the heat, and doing the dirty work for a corporation with inadequate mercenary rosters. If Exxon wants to do business in hostile countries, they need to do so at their own risk. If Haliburton can't bear to be parted from their sweet crude, let them drown in it, but not with the help of our innocent, ignorant youths, most of whom just want enough money to go to college and move out of the sticks.

I'm really not an antagonistic guy, and I respect the right of each man to his opinion. I know it's a lot to ask, but please respect me for mine. My one true wish is to life in a society that values logic, true democracy, learning and responsibility over all.

Edit: Just to clarify, I don't think the Iraqi fighters are righteous, I believe they think they're righteous, which is the same thing. Know a thing to be true, and it makes it true, at least for you. If a man believes he is god, he is. If we believe that we can return to the Garden of Paradise, we will in short order. Those who believe in quaint traditions like organized religion could soon find themselves alone in the desert once again..history repeats itself? haha

[edit on 3-1-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by Phoenix

200,000 divided by 24,678,667 = 0.008 (rounded)

The opposition represents 1/8000th of the population!

One in 8000 ?

Thats .8% of the population or about 1 fighter for every 123 people. Thats a LOT more than 1 fighter for 8000 people.

Originally posted by MBF

Originally posted by Phoenix

200,000 divided by 24,678,667 = 0.008 (rounded)

The opposition represents 1/8000th of the population!

One in 8000 ?

Thats .8% of the population or about 1 fighter for every 123 people. Thats a LOT more than 1 fighter for 8000 people.

Sorry redid that on a calculator and the answer is still .008 Three places after the decimal still equals thousandths - right?

WyrdeOne, your words are eloquent and well put but I must disagree with much of what you have said, that being the case debate on the issue is a bore with those agreeing with yourself - eh.

You have stated,

I think you are mistaken when you assume that the 'terrorists' have the ability to sway the publics opinion.

What I said is that the terrorist's have the sway of the media which sways American public opinion - simply because most do not know better as you inferred later - sex and violence sells not intelligent political discourse.


Before I go further in direct answer to your suppositions let me say that I believe the american public cannot grasp the true reason we are in Iraq in the first place, never have, probably never will no matter the political party in charge here in the US.

Iraq is and has been the keystone country in a region controlled by dictatorial regimes hostile to the US and its interests for security, economic and political reasons. 9/11 predicated action in this region in an effort to militarily provide the basis for political change in the entire region not just Iraq or Afganistan.

Without Iraq's military defeat and the deposing of Saddam Hussien no other country in the region currently under a dictatorship or theocracy (same as dictatorship in the end) has any chance of political change in any near term future.

I myself have seen enough evidence to convince me that Saddam was seen as the strongman of the middle east as well as an ardent supporter of terrorism against the US and its interests - we'll debate the finer points another time. Nonetheless leaving Saddam in power was no longer a viable alternative. To do so is and was a sure way to lose any goals of the war on terror after the defeat of the Taliban.

Again we can debate the reasons for the war at another time but it is important that you know my belief for the war.

They develop a bloodlust that drives them to the extremes we saw in Mai Lai. The extreme we saw in Abu Ghraib.. The marines flying the gunships, laying down carpets of DU and HE, do they think about the women and children cowering under their beds and in basements? Of course not! They're not trained to think! They're trained to kill!

You may have watched one movie to many.

Our soldiers are trained to be loyal to their squad, unit, battalion, division etc. then the nation. They fight hard to protect their squadmate - that is the training making for the best soldier.

Patriotism is for the hero as dapravity is for the villain - both exist side by side in war. War brings the best and worst out in people - the ying and the yang.

I'm pretty sure that if they had any idea how twisted the rationale behind this war has become, if they really grasped the consequences of their actions, they would either bring up their commanders on charges or frag 'em and be done with it.

This is why I mentioned the projection of ones personal feelings upon the soldiers that are actually serving in Iraq, you are guessing and in a way projecting actions upon others that is not deserved nor warranted because of the actions of a few.

As far as the corporate involvment is concerned such as Hallibuton have you ever reviewed the contracts made prior to the Bush administration or are you now tiredly towing the MM line? Check it out - you might be surprised.

Those who believe in quaint traditions like organized religion could soon find themselves alone in the desert once again..history repeats itself? haha

As sure a bet for trouble as I've ever known, organized religion seems to have its zealots no matter the faith - thats not for me by any means.

It is part of the root cause for this war though

Again I compliment on your verbiage and wish only to debate not argue (well ok a little bit) even though we believe differently.

The problem with that number of insurgents, is it's trending upwards.

It wasn't too long ago that there were only an estimated 20,000 insurgents now it's 200,000 even though thousands have been killed already.

BTW Phoenix, if 200,000 out of 24,678,667 = 1 in 8,000 then shouldn't you be able be able to multiply 200,000 x 8,000 and get 24,678,667 ?

Let's try it out:
200,000 x 8,000 = 1,600,000,000 (1.6 billion)

Let's try out MBF's calculation of 1 in 123 now:
200,000 x 123 = 24,600,000 (24.6 million)

1 in 123 seems much closer than 1 in 8,000

.008 equals .8%
.08 equals 8%
.8 equals 80%

[edit on 5-1-2005 by AceOfBase]

I'm going to say the U.S lost this war.

A note for the superstitious:

The Iraqi elections will take place exactly 37 years (to the day) after the beginning of the Tet offensive in Vietnam, which was and is widely regarded to be the event that finally convinced Americans that the war could not be won. Hope the Chimperor doesn't believe in astrology.

Phoenix

You're right, sex and violence sell, but that doesn't make them more important or less important. I think straight capitalism is responsible for this trend. I would reccomend a more subtle, adaptive model, like capitalistic meritocracy; you earn money based on improving yourself, helping out those less fortunate, studying and producing art and music, inventing new technology that can help mankind, etc. etc. you get the picture. Then, once you have the money, you can spend it on any manner of debauchery you can imagine. Two sides of the coin, allowing for human nature, whilst encouraging positive advancement. Can I get a vote on this? Will the whole human species please stand up?

Iraq was a cornerstone, you are right. There were three other corners in that happy square though, they are Syria, Egypt, and Iran. When held up side by side they serve as an adequate comparison of Middle Eastern Governments, I think they are highly representative of the whole, don't you? Iraq was the military government opposed to religion, Syria was the Military government for religion, Egypt was a moderate stab at democracy, and Iran was a peoples religious movement that took over a military dictatorship. I would even go so far as to suggest, that looking at their respective histories, you can see a progression in successful governance. Each step of the way brings new hazards, but among the bunch, Egypt was doing the best, Iran the second best, Iraq the third best, and Syria the worst, in terms of moving away from dogmatic, warlike behavior based on ephemeral religious ideas and what not. Egypt certainly recognizes the value of religion in the frame of history, and spirituality, but it doesn't go so far as Iraq in saying no to religion, or as far as Iran and Syria in the other direction. Long story short, given time, the situation in the Middle East would have evolved into a more efficient, more cohesive region. They could have surmounted their problems, or at least given the chance to do so, which I think is every citizens right and responsibility. Every citizen is responsible for their country, just as reciprocaly, every government must be responsible for their citizens. So in the end, whatever Iraq was doing to destabilize the region, its neighbors were evolving ahead of it and doing better, it would have also, eventually. Or, it would have found itself isolated and ignored. I think these sorts of problems, nation on nation, especially when religion is involved, can best be resolved by isolation and the passage of time. Common sense leaks into even the most religious cultures given a long enough time frame.

You're right about patriotism and depravity. There are of course, two sides to everything. Granted, but I maintain that the balance is all important, and at this very moment unstable. There is too much Yang going around in that region, and our military. Hell of a lot of Yang.

You say none of those countries would have had a chance to break free from their military dictatorship, what about Iran? They desposed of the shah and punished the government thugs who had tortured so many into compliance. I hear they were fed their genitals actually. I'd say they handled the situation rather handily.

NO argument from me that Saddam was a strongman, a warlord of impressive stature, and he had a fearsome reputation too. He was a terror to many of his people, and if he is indeed captured, I think he should be let go, in broad daylight, on the streets of Baghdad. If his people want to 'depose his regime' they can do it either with trial and incarceration, or a rock to the back of the head while he's running in his US gov. insued skivvies. Let the Iraqis handle Iraqi problems, they and we will be better for it in the long run. And lets not forget why Saddam was such a strongman, he was a US military project gone awry, like many others. He had tactics and weapons, and for a while, he even had the backing of the US.

You say that to leave Saddam in power would be to nullify the effectiveness of the war on terror. In my mind, that's like saying you have to remove a brick from the middle of a wall to stop the wall from falling on top of your head. We create two terrorists for every one we kill, we create hundreds of terrorists for every innocent we kill, because word of atrocity spreads like carrion smell, how do we ever expect to make headway in this war? It's a war against a faceless enemy, just like the war on drugs, because faceless enemies never die, and the war can go on forever if you want it to. That's the idea behind it. Also, by criminalizing resistance to foreign meddling in the affairs of a sovereign state, we set a dangerous precedent. What's to stop, say, Mexico, from invading the US now that one state is allowed to conduct pre-emptive strikes against another in the eyes of the world. The Mexicans could claim we have secret biological and chemical weapons, that we have nukes and are doing nuclear research. They could say we're internationally irresponsible, and lead to insability in the region. It's just a dangerous road to go down, and even though we're already on it, there's less shame in admitting a mistake and retreating than there is in knowingly continuing against better judgement. I really worry about those troops in Iraq, because their supply lines get thinner with every mile they move north, and they don't have a competent commander in chief.

Rumsfeld is a joke, an armchair general who couldn't even be bothered with studying up on foreign generals like Giap. On a somewhat related note, I find it strangely ironic that we're losing the battle in Iraq in a manner similar to the way the British lost in America during the Revolutionary war. Remember how hard the British invasion hit? British generals were waddling from city to city, planting flags and clapping in excitement at the sound the cannons made. Remember how the Americans scattered to the hills, and learned a thing or two about guerilla warfare, then came back, whooped the British, and harrassed them all the way back to their ships, with the aid of a small European nation that will go unnamed...

The Taliban were most definitely some twisted little boogers, but I say we should have let them twist. Let them make tons of enemies in the region, let them make friends too, and stomp all around and make noise, until the citizens of the countries involved get sick of living in a repressed society engaged in torture and brutality. Then the citizens would take care of the Taliban mess for the benefit of themselves and the world at large. Everybody feels good about themselves, nobody meddled, and we can all say cheers with a pint.

I am projecting my feelings and emotions on the troops, I admit. I also know however, without a doubt, that there are human beings in uniform right now who wish they weren't, for all the same reasons we're discussing. And it's not cowardice in all cases! Sometimes it's pragmatism, sometimes it's idealism, sometimes it's religious conviction, whatever. There are soldiers who disagree with the war just like there are civilians who disagree with the war. The only difference is, a soldier is duty bound and cannot speak his mind freely without fear of reprisal, and a citizen for the most part can. That's why I'm here, and you too I imagine. Somebody in essence NEEDS to speak for them, because they are far away, and fighting because we told them to. I think an uncensored sattelite link from Fallujah would be an excellent way to get the real feelings of the troops home to Americans. Give fifty marines a video camera and let them roam around, talking to people, sending messages home, that sort of thing. The American people would be well served to understand what they want and try hard to make it happen. I think overwhelmingly they want to come home.

I don't think eradicating religion is the answer, at least not forcibly. The trick might be to sabotage its spread by encouraging isolationism for a few centuries. Then radical islam will be on par with the mystery keepers in Tibet, isolated, inefectual and nearly forgotten, but preserved for the historic record. I appreciate the lively conversation though, and I actually don't mind arguing for the same reason I don't mind Martial Arts, when the fight is over, honorable men shake hands.

[edit on 4-1-2005 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 4-1-2005 by WyrdeOne]

I don't know about the sji'ite post-election intentions (I feel they deserve a piece of the power in iraq), but I would allmost certainly think that if the usa starts messing up things in Iran, their roots,, the iraqi sji'ites (wich kept reasonably quiet compared to sunni insurgency) might massively turn against the american presence, that would pose a serious problem.

Originally posted by Phoenix

Sorry redid that on a calculator and the answer is still .008 Three places after the decimal still equals thousandths - right?

My college degree in math says that me and Ace are right. When you calculate the way you did, you are calculating a percentage or a part of a whole. .008 is the same as .8%.