Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

a reply to: kaylaluv

Lets not forget when the satanists demand the same rights to show what a git God is whilst giving out their presents.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I object to all forms of religious throat clogging, that is, to have any ideology, even my own, thrust down my neck with total abandon for the state of those whose trachea become gridlocked with it. However, this action against the Air Force appears, from my perspective, to be incredibly short sighted on the part of the organisation which began the action.

For a start, does the charity only provide toys to kids who happen to be Christian? Or does it do this noble thing simply because it should be done, regardless of whose kids get the toys? If this organisation gives to kids from a range of backgrounds and faiths, then what harm has it done anyone to support it? Is a similar service being provided by a secular group, and if so, will that group be taking up the challenge of filling the gap in charity work that cannot now be supported by the Air Force? If not, what gives the MRFF the idea that their position being right on a technicality, is of any importance when compared to the possibility that a small spark of joy might be felt by children in lands far distant, as a result of the kind heartedness of regular folk?

Genuine believers in Christ would be the first to say that the important thing about gift drives like these, is not spreading the word of Christ, but spreading joy, a small amount of joy to folk who would benefit from it the most. Nourishing the hearts of young people, that is the main thrust of a drive like this. It is nice to know, that the MRFF have all the respect for collateral damage, associated with drone pilots. They should change their slogan. "Will prevent thousands of children from having fun, simply to point out a technical error on the part of a large government organisation" or "Our right to religious freedom is more important than hearing an impoverished child's joyous laughter", or alternatively,"Stopping at nothing, including making young people bare the consequences, to ensure YOUR right to religious freedom."

a reply to: DelMarvel

I would venture to guess it's more appropriate to go after said reprisals than someone who sends out a volunteer opportunity. That right there is a clear example of just how petty people are... on both sides of the issue.

Silencing through bullying. It's the new normal.

originally posted by: bastion

originally posted by: Annee
The Air Force has a long history of forcing Christianity.

They've been taken to court more then once.

I support Separation of Church and State 100%.

They wanna collect toys? Don't call it Christmas.

I'm afraid as an atheist I have to disagree 100%.

They're just giving presents to kids, yes it's called Christmas, but these days Christmas is a general excuse for everyone to get together and be nice to each other and swap gifts for a day and isn't purely a religious thing.

Yes, but it was being made a "religious thing;" specifically a religious thing for a very contentious ministry and it came from the office of the squadron commander.

If this woman had not had a history of using her office to proselytize and if the invitation had just been presented as an opportunity to volunteer for a Christmas toy drive (even one sponsored by a religious group) there probably wouldn't have been a complaint.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF)

WTF does this mean if service men dont have the right to practice their religion?

Was anyone forced to participate? So what if someone gets a Christmas Flyer? If you don't get a Christmas Flyer does Christmas somehow cease to exists?

IMO it is ideologies like this that make atheist look every bit as fanatical as religious fanatics. When do we start respecting each other as human beings and stop trying to force a minority view on everyone?

We are one nation under God. Whatever God, gods or lack of god that maens to you. We are supposed to be secular not ideological. Whether those ideas are theistic or anti-theistic.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF)

WTF does this mean if service men dont have the right to practice their religion?

The Bullies were Christians.

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) is a watchdog group and advocacy organization founded in 2005 by Michael Weinstein. The group's stated goals are to "ensure that members of the United States Armed Forces receive the Constitutional guarantee of religious freedom to which they are entitled by virtue of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment."

The organization was founded by Michael Weinstein in 2005 for the purpose of opposing the spread of alleged religious intimidation by Christians in positions of power within the US military.[3] Weinstein stated that he experienced discrimination due to his Jewish faith while a cadet at the United States Air Force Academy. After his sons were also reported to have experienced discrimination as well while at the Academy, Weinstein founded the MRFF in 2005. en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: jimmyx

Unless I'm misunderstanding, it's not the organization on the base doing the collecting, it's the base doing the collecting on behalf of the organization, then giving them to the organization.

If that is the case, I'd be fine with whatever. Hell, I'm fine with whatever anyhow, because I don't get all butt hurt when religions do things on behalf of holidays created by their religions. That latter point showing that your Muslim assertion is a red-herring, because they don't celebrate Christmas, so it would make no sense for a military base to collect on their behalf.

I wonder if the person/people who made a complaint also started a toy drive of their own, besides complaining about the current one. I think that would've been the proper thing to do.

Because for me, the only problem I see in this whole scenario , the one that matters the most to me, is that there is a possibility that some children will not get toys for the holidays. Children that may have had a toy if the toy drive was allowed to occur.

I think if they would've offered another viable solution to collect and deliver toys to needy children, in addition to opposing the one that was to be used, then most people wouldn't care about this issue.

I haven't read anywhere that this has occurred though...

Thanks,
blend57

originally posted by: blend57

I think if they would've offered another viable solution to collect and deliver toys to needy children, in addition to opposing the one that was to be used, then most people wouldn't care about this issue.

Yes, but would they?

Some Christian soup kitchens choose to shut their doors - - if they have to serve gays - - or if they are not allowed to proselytize while "doing their good deed".

a reply to: Annee

You still haven't answered my question.

originally posted by: Kryties
a reply to: Annee

You still haven't answered my question.

I have.

You choose not to accept it.

a reply to: Annee

I am absolutely sure you are right. Christian superiority complex is unfortunately alive and well.

But shouldn't we be protecting everyone's right to religion and everyone's right to not be forced or intimidated to act against their faith?

As long as no one is forced and all views are protected, what people do to celebrate shouldn't be offensive to anyone.

I wonder if the person/people who made a complaint also started a toy drive of their own, besides complaining about the current one.

THEY WEREN'T COMPLAINING ABOUT THE TOY DRIVE!

The were complaining about being proselytized by the secretary to the commander of the squadron.

ETA: And the toy drive was allowed to continue. The toy drive had nothing to do with the Air Force Base.

If this had been a secretary to the commander who was a Jehovah's Witness and was leaving the Watchtower on people's desks and who sent out an email saying "Come join us in teaching poor little children that Jesus doesn't want them celebrating Christmas because it isn't in the Bible" this would have been taken care of without fourteen airmen having to complain to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Annee

I am absolutely sure you are right. Christian superiority complex is unfortunately alive and well.

But shouldn't we be protecting everyone's right to religion and everyone's right to not be forced or intimidated to act against their faith?

As long as no one is forced and all views are protected, what people do to celebrate shouldn't be offensive to anyone.

Just to be clear - - - I was raised Christian. I do not speak of other religions because I am not knowledgeable of them.

I gave Christianity my best shot, not accepting I am atheist until age 65.

America is a secular government. Therefore, military is secular. While individuals are protected to believe or not believe - - - they are not allowed to promote their specific belief/non-belief in any professional capacity.

They can collect toys (Marines have Toys for Tots, Army has Toys for Kids). They can not collect toys in the name of a specific faith.

Its that simple.

originally posted by: Annee

I have.

You choose not to accept it.

No you did not. Not even remotely. I asked why you think these people are NOT giving toys to non-Christians. You replied "Christmas".

In no universe is that even remotely a satisfactory answer. It doesn't even make sense. You are trying to push some sort of agenda where these people are specifically denying non-Christian children the toys they collect - nothing of the sort was said in the OP or the article linked.

Now, please answer the question properly.

a reply to: DelMarvel

How is an email calling Christians to give toys to Children for Christmas proselytizing? Was someone unaware of Christmas and the giving of toys by Christians at Christmas?

Did the email say any non Christian is dammed to hell for not following Christ and giving toys?

Arguing over a Christmas email for charitable donations is ridiculous.

a reply to: Kryties

From what I have seen the salvation army, toys for tots and other religious charities give toys to anyone who asks for toys. And no one is asked are you Christians. Nor would their children be denied even if they were not.

Athiest are devoid of all common sense and rationale if they support such actions in this manner.

Really low to see something they feel is a problem and make a plan to deal with it in this manner.

I sure hope the term separation of church and state does not end us but as it stands it is continually being misinterpreted in a manner that ends with a completely faithless gov including the removal of all religious people and culture.

It is sick for some to now come here and claim victory because they managed to keep some children from getting toys.