Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

The secular world is systemically removing any reference to God, Jesus Christ or Christianity from every possible area. I'm a Viet Nam vet and noticed that at my local VA Hospital, when asked to remove the cross hanging around my neck - it was referred to as my "chain". The word "cross" was completely omitted & never once spoken. America has turned its back on the Living God and removed any references to Him from our schools, colleges, media and politics i.e. the pledge of allegiance or the word Christmas, as this debate proves. I read recently that in our public schools the students are now taught to say that, "Allah is God." America needs to wake up spiritually, confess its sin and repent, or sure and sudden destruction will come upon this nation. By America making abortion legal (murder in my opinion) and signing on to the Gay agenda (perversion in my opinion), America has sealed her fate. America calls sin normal and spiritual fervor fanaticism. The principles that once made America great and the world leader of democracy & freedom have eroded to the point that they are hardly recognizable anymore & surely ineffective. Any American's Constitutional rights are subject to nullification when Mr. Obama flips the switch for persecution of Christians and other groups or individuals considered to be homeland terrorists. Militarization of police and various governmental departments and FEMA camps will surely enforce that edict. When Russian & Chinese cruise missiles begin to rain down on America, it will be too late. Wake up America and repent or your destruction is certain.

a reply to: DelMarvel

I didn't address my own position on the ludicrous nature of the actual Christian belief system. When I used the term "mythological" I am referring to the frequency of faithful or what one could call genuine Christians as you describe in my own experience.

However, I reserve the right, and I don't mean this with any snark at all, to use terms that fit my own experience and understanding, rather than trying to accommodate to yours. I'm glad you know good Christians; I have known a few, years ago.

I haven't met any in a long long time.

But ... even that is irrelevant to this discussion. This matter is not about liking Christians or not.

It is about religious freedom and freedom from religion. It is about keeping the government from sponsoring religion.

The matter at hand is very clear cut in my opinion. What we think about Christians, Christianity, or any other religion is irrelevant here (except perhaps as a side-note.)

I hope this is clear; I support what you are saying, and I think you are a great poster. I agree with your general points, and our only disagreement is a minor one, in my opinion.

Keep fighting the good fight for truth!

a reply to: fishing4truth

And yet, on the way home from dinner (about a 2 mile stretch in suburban Atlanta) I passed four churches that all had Christian messages on their yard signs.

Seems like God is alive and well for many.

There are whole cable channels devoted to Christian programming. Millions of viewers every day watch these programs.

There are 300,000 Christian churches in America. The area of the United States is 3.8 million sq. miles.

Do the math ... that means there are 12.6 churches per sq mile.

Now, let's forget that there are vast areas of Texas, the Southwest, Alaska, et. al. that have no human habitation.

That says to me that Christian churches are thick as thieves in this country.

More than 80% of Americans define themselves as Christian.

Etc. etc. etc.

Russia is also heavily Christian, perhaps even moreso than the USA.

China is the largest producer of Bibles in the world.

These are all facts that put the lie to your comments above; no disrespect intended.

Good. Keep religion out of the military.
The poor, picked on Christian majority has trod roughshod over the rights of the rest of us for long enough.

originally posted by: Kryties
Apparently some people care more about their own selfish interests than poor kids getting toys for Christmas.

For shame.

You're making a strawman argument and then attacking it. Congrats. No one in this thread has ever stated that they don't want kids to get Toys. It can be done in a secular manner without referencing any religious holidays. If they called it, "Satan's Ultimate Toy Giveaway." You'd take issue with it because you're a hypocrite. Then, I could accuse you of hating kids and not wanting them to get toys. You could then respond by saying you want the kids to get toys, but you don't think the name of the drive is appropriate. Consider using your head to imagine your opponent's point of view before spouting off a knee-jerk reaction.

originally posted by: andrewh7

You're making a strawman argument and then attacking it. Congrats. No one in this thread has ever stated that they don't want kids to get Toys.

Congratulations on completely missing my point.



Try reading ALL my posts in this thread, then perhaps you won't completely butcher the point next time.

originally posted by: DelMarvel
a reply to: Harvin

Yes, there are military chaplains from a number of faiths and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation has clearly stated that in regard to this case there would have been no problem with this solicitation originating from a chaplain's office where it belongs.

However, the objection is to religious endorsement coming from COMMAND.

That may be true, but there are posters in this thread talking about complete separation of church and state which would have to imply there would be no military chaplains as it would be an oxymoron if those posters had their wish granted.

a reply to: uncommitted

Not at all, in fact, that issue has been long settled:

...the court case of Abington v. Schemp stated "...the situation such as military service, where the government regulates the temporal and geographic environment of individuals to a point that, unless it permits voluntary religious services to be conducted with the use of government facilities, military personnel would be unable to engage in the practice of their faiths." (School District of Abingdon Township, PA v. Schemp 374 US 203 [1963])

Source

Allowing chaplains is a compromise between the two phases of "religious freedom" ... condoning officially-sanctioned Christian proselytizing via toy is not.

... although, perhaps we should also consider the words of James Madison aka "The Father of the Constitution" on the general issue (government support of Chaplains):

Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?

In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation.

The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor.

Detached Memoranda, James Madison

a reply to: Kryties

You would think so but what do you expect from a bunch of souless apes.

originally posted by: Whicker
a reply to: Kryties

You would think so but what do you expect from a bunch of souless apes.

No more and no less than one can expect from people with no reading comprehension skills.

a reply to: Whicker

at least the "soulless apes" have taken some time and looked into what really happened.
fact is, the secretary of the commander sent out an email on via the gov't computers promoting and asking for volunteers for a toy drive that was being held by a christian group off base. If she had passed this email off to the chaplain, which would be the proper channel for this kind of email, there wouldn't have been any problem probably, and the email probably wouldn't have been considered offensive by so many, because the chaplain is specifically trained by the military as to be sensitive to those of various faiths.

people found it offensive and since this wasn't the first time that this secretary has chosen to spread "the good news of salvation" using official channels, well people chose to bypass the command structure and take legal measure instead.

but the emails had already been sent out, and those who received it still had the choice to volunteer or not... the toy drive wasn't effected in the least bit, and so, none of this effected any children getting toys in anyway!!!

some of those "soulless apes" that raised the complaint up were christians, maybe some were jewish, or devout believers in some other religion... the US is a big country, with many religions being represented in it, as well as some who just don't believe there is a god, and well, it's only appropriate that our military have the same kind of diverse representation. and the last thing we need is the military degrading because of sectarian division among it's ranks because a small section of the christian sects seem to think that everyone else are just "soulless apes"!!!

a reply to: dawnstar

Here is an example of a group of military atheists who joined together to organize a food drive for the homeless AND a toy drive for Toys For Tots. And it all happened during the Christmas holiday. So see, atheists aren't all evil monsters trying to take the joy out of living for little kids.

As a side note, this group worked with the chaplain's office to organize themselves. As it SHOULD BE DONE.

militaryatheists.org...

originally posted by: Gryphon66
... condoning officially-sanctioned Christian proselytizing via toy is not.

The only thing she condoned was the volunteer opportunity of collecting toys for kids. She gave no opinion for or against proselytizing Christians.

a reply to: JaneyShmaney

have you read the actual email she sent out??

there seemed to be some proselytizing in it...

originally posted by: JaneyShmaney

originally posted by: Gryphon66
... condoning officially-sanctioned Christian proselytizing via toy is not.

The only thing she condoned was the volunteer opportunity of collecting toys for kids. She gave no opinion for or against proselytizing Christians.

The toy drive itself was designed to proselytize kids so just endorsing that was endorsing the "missionary" activity. However, the email not only condoned that but clearly asked DoD employees to engage in evangelical activity.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: JaneyShmaney

have you read the actual email she sent out??

there seemed to be some proselytizing in it...

I read it:

"Team FSS GREAT VOLUNTEER OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!
See info below -- Local Point of Contact: Our very own Mr Renee
Valladeres in Civilian Personnel at 6774654
René B. Valladares
Media Volunteer
Central DelMar Operation Christmas Child (OCC)
Saturday, 24-Oct-2015. OCC Public Packing Party! Calvary Community Center,
1532 E. Lebanon Rd (DE Route 10, near Dover AFB). It starts at 8 a.m. We
plan to pack a LOT of shoeboxes, 5000+! Bring a friend or bring a group (WE
NEED YOU!). See attached flyer and feel free to share in your Christian
circles."

It's my understanding the flyer itself came from the Calvary Community Center and she didn't condone the proselytizing within it.

originally posted by: redoubt
a reply to: Annee

"They wanna collect toys? Don't call it Christmas."

Let me get this straight, if I may...

Toy collecting for underprivileged children is okay if the word "Christmas' is not attached but if it is... these kids can go without?

Izzat what you're saying?

This!

This is for the kids, it's the Adults who are making a stink about it simply because of what it's always been called. I'm truly ashamed sometimes to be part of the human race when i see articles like this.

lol, there was also a protion of the email that seems to be the email that came to her along with the flyer...
why don't you post that portion? I am tired of backtracking to find it. she could have left this portion out, and only attached the flyer to the email, she chose not to. so, we get that short little clip that you posted, and them about three times more talking about the precious gift of salvation through christ, and inviting the receiver to come and join them in prayer.

originally posted by: JaneyShmaney

originally posted by: Gryphon66
... condoning officially-sanctioned Christian proselytizing via toy is not.

The only thing she condoned was the volunteer opportunity of collecting toys for kids. She gave no opinion for or against proselytizing Christians.

Except this is not the first or only time she's been reprimanded for soliciting Christian material.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."