Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

a reply to: BubbaJoe

I respect honesty. Even if it's from an adversary. I respect this!

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: BubbaJoe

I respect honesty. Even if it's from an adversary. I respect this!

This is what make folks like us come to a consensus, we may not agree, but we can find common ground.

a reply to: murphy22

No, I'm not confusing anything.

The Founders were distinctly familiar with the Church of England.

They specifically did not say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of a National Church."

They said "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The remainder of your argument is apparently as paltry as the first part since you're feebly trying to make this about me.

In regard to your somewhat relevant question, specifically, Thomas Jefferson worked to change the legal punishment in Virginia for sodomy from death to castration and/or mutilation. This was seen as a recognition that there was no reason for that to be a capital crime.

Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments

... it appears at the same time equally deducible from the purposes of society that a member thereof, committing an inferior injury, does not wholly forfeit the protection of his fellow citizens, but, after suffering a punishment in proportion to his offence is entitled to their protection from all greater pain ...

Totally counter to the standard beliefs of his time and English Common Law, he didn't believe that homosexuals deserved death.

So, given 230 years or so of intervening history ... I'd say Jefferson, valuing individual freedom, would be perfectly fine with gay pride parades.

Why do you have a problem with other people sharing in the freedoms you feel you deserve?

Atheists are funny, even high end scientists within a good percentage agrees in a higher power. hmm the thing about denying the existence of something is that you have to give way to the possibility that it exists in the first place to claim disbelief in it. Otherwise it wouldn't make one react to the fact that it bothers them.

In short, if you don't believe in it to begin with? Why expend so much energy into forcing others to see your point of view? In the end...isn't atheism a religion in itself?

Hello kettle my name is Pot......LOL people are stupid...generally speaking of course.....

originally posted by: Azryael
Atheists are funny, even high end scientists within a good percentage agrees in a higher power. hmm the thing about denying the existence of something is that you have to give way to the possibility that it exists in the first place to claim disbelief in it. Otherwise it wouldn't make one react to the fact that it bothers them.

In short, if you don't believe in it to begin with? Why expend so much energy into forcing others to see your point of view? In the end...isn't atheism a religion in itself?

Hello kettle my name is Pot......LOL people are stupid...generally speaking of course.....

This is a post concerning a woman violating her ethical contractual obligations, why would atheism play any part in this?

It's so fascinating to watch the various attempts to "spin" here ...

Overt lies about the nature of the evangelical organization promoting this event.

Suggesting that atheists are against kids getting presents at Christmas.

Suggesting that atheists are angry or upset because they respect the US Constitution and expect others to do so.

It's not about atheism. It's not about toys. It's about the Constitution.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
It's so fascinating to watch the various attempts to "spin" here ...

Overt lies about the nature of the evangelical organization promoting this event.

Suggesting that atheists are against kids getting presents at Christmas.

Suggesting that atheists are angry or upset because they respect the US Constitution and expect others to do so.

It's not about atheism. It's not about toys. It's about the Constitution.

Ultimately the Constitution, but basically about one individual violating the ethics agreement that she signed as she became an employee of the federal government. Fox News will spin this into all kinds of war on christmas bovine feces.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

Who is stopping you from "not believing"? So in your mind, it's okay for the government to "establish" no belief? Which Tottaly nulls, The Decloration of Independents. Nobody is stopping people from "unbelief". But there's a whole lot of "you can't believe that" going on. ... All men are created equal. Unless you have a mental illness..then you need help. Slavery was wrong, is wrong. There was no "tweaking" just adherence to the law, the COTUS. Don't pull that strawman "slavery" arguement. Mental illness and "slavery" aren't even in the same grid square.

a reply to: Xcathdra
ya and church's mail out their church newsletters to their congregation also, and they buy religious tracts, and bibles, korans, ect are shipped all over the place! You, me, anybody can send any of these things, or well, newsletters promoting just about any weird belief we wish, as long as we aren't breaking any laws, like mail fraud.
the Gov't is just providing a service, and we all have the same freedoms to use that service. It's a far cry from a gov't employee, sending emails to other employees via the gov'ts computers that contain religious dogma.
I highly suspect that there's a number of employers out there that if one of their employees were to do this, would be reprimanded, and quite frankly, I was a school library aide for awhile and often typed the correspondence. I would have never sent any letter with the schools official letterhead without the librarian first reviewing it. So, well to me, a secretary just of her own accord, sending out something like this would be kind of wrong, without her boss giving her authority to do so.... and there's regulations that by what I understand prohibit it. so well, just like many employees might be reprimanded for abusing their company's equipment to send out christian dogma, this secretary might.
the emails were already sent out though and well those who received them still had the option to go if they wanted to. The air force wasn't the ones collecting the toys, the event was off base and was still held, the kids will still get their toys...this little secretary was just recruiting for the event.
so what you are griping about is the idea that a boss (in this case, the gov't) can make rules as to just how their equipment can be used. But, I am pretty sure that many griping about this would take the exact opposite position if it involved an employer in the private sector and a muslim not liking the rules they laid out.

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: BubbaJoe

Who is stopping you from "not believing"? So in your mind, it's okay for the government to "establish" no belief? Which Tottaly nulls, The Decloration of Independents. Nobody is stopping people from "unbelief". But there's a whole lot of "you can't believe that" going on. ... All men are created equal. Unless you have a mental illness..then you need help. Slavery was wrong, is wrong. There was no "tweaking" just adherence to the law, the COTUS. Don't pull that strawman "slavery" arguement. Mental illness and "slavery" aren't even in the same grid square.

Wow.

Just, wow.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I think you answered your own question. In replying. Castration? Really? That's not a "Capital Punishment"? You think they'd enjoy thier "life" therafter? Good grief! Give TJ some credit for being a man. You brought him into this!

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: BubbaJoe

Who is stopping you from "not believing"? So in your mind, it's okay for the government to "establish" no belief? Which Tottaly nulls, The Decloration of Independents. Nobody is stopping people from "unbelief". But there's a whole lot of "you can't believe that" going on. ... All men are created equal. Unless you have a mental illness..then you need help. Slavery was wrong, is wrong. There was no "tweaking" just adherence to the law, the COTUS. Don't pull that strawman "slavery" arguement. Mental illness and "slavery" aren't even in the same grid square.

No one is stopping me from not believing, but I am faced almost daily, because of the part of town I work in, evangelicals wanting to hand me tracts, wanting to get into my face, etc. Why do I have to tolerate that, and deal with the anxiety of not punching them in the throat? When our Constitution was passed, only white men were allowed to vote, took women almost 150 years to get the right.

I would agree that slavery is wrong, but it was just as wrong in 1787 as it is in 2015, but Africans only counted for 3/5's of a person, and not allowed to vote. I come across as a pretty flaming liberal, but actually hold a degree in American History. There are a lot of things right with this country, but there are a lot of things that have a lot of people going WTF?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Yep! Wow! I said that. You don't get "wower" than that!

a reply to: BubbaJoe

I get it. I get the same S! From other "Christian Faiths". You think "Christians" don't deal with this? But you know what? We love our God. We love to talk about him. We actually pray and hope for eachother.... There's no hate in our disagreements. Yes there's the "get away from me moments"...but no hate or contempt. Or "Don't establish your religion" movement. That I know of.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: BubbaJoe

Who is stopping you from "not believing"? So in your mind, it's okay for the government to "establish" no belief? Which Tottaly nulls, The Decloration of Independents. Nobody is stopping people from "unbelief". But there's a whole lot of "you can't believe that" going on. ... All men are created equal. Unless you have a mental illness..then you need help. Slavery was wrong, is wrong. There was no "tweaking" just adherence to the law, the COTUS. Don't pull that strawman "slavery" arguement. Mental illness and "slavery" aren't even in the same grid square.

Wow.

Just, wow.

Yea, amazing isn't it? Nobody is stopping anybody from non-belief. All they're doing is sending you emails "testifying." To your work email. From their work email. No big deal. You can just hit delete. Of course you'll have to read it first, since she marked it as "high priority" traffic. But you can delete it.

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: BubbaJoe

I get it. I get the same S! From other "Christian Faiths". You think "Christians" don't deal with this? But you know what? We love our God. We love to talk about him. We actually pray and hope for eachother.... There's no hate in our disagreements. Yes there's the "get away from me moments"...but no hate or contempt. Or "Don't establish your religion" movement. That I know of.

I work for a CPA, we have christian, jewish, muslim, and atheist clients. The holidays suck remembering who is who. I live with my mom and step dad, bible thumper on his 4th marriage with 8 kids, and no idea where 3 of them are. I was raised christian, even into fundamentalism, saw some really bad stuff, has led me to be the agnostic I am today. I have no problem believing there is something larger than I in this universe, but even if I was atheist, I would believe in one less god than you. Christians ignore about 4000 other gods that are documented in other religions.

a reply to: BubbaJoe
Where do you think some of this starts? A break in religious practice over the ages has facilitated this kind of hair splitting. In all honesty the separation of church and state didn't come until much later when it had already been indoctrinated into the fabric that is this country. When we finally made the divorce from England legal it was too late to make such a distinction as since the colonies inception religion itself has played a major role in all matters of colonial life.

Just pointing out the current paradox that fuels much of this baseless perception among population that is too superficial and shallow to see the bigger picture, thus raping society from the little humanity it has left for our fellow people.

Its the over PC police that defines what we are willing to let continue through complacency. The example argument is valid as a underlining definition of this.

I know it seems odd, but it applies.

a reply to: Shamrock6
No, you don't have to read it, you just "open it". Then delete. It's not rocket science or that hard to push a button. You should see the "spam" I have to delete. Have some guts....glory will follow.

a reply to: murphy22

If you owned a large company, and found out your employees were spending time with internal emails (either writing or deleting them) that were far from work related, would you feel the same way? Many companies now are monitoring just about every action their employees do on company's computers and are even trying to butt in on what they do with their own. How many christians you reckon are in the military? If they all got into the habit of sending religious doctrines to everyone, reckon how much times would be wasted by everyone deleting them?
The military has rules you have to follow, just like you have to follow rules that your boss lays out. The military is part of the gov't and so some of these rules are in place because the constitution prohibits it from doing certain things, like allowing religion to venture in where it doesn't belong. Heck, the military even have some rules that are stupid as all heck to us civilians that have never served.. but, just like that employer has a right to have rules, so doesn't the gov't.

Just accept that the secretary broke the rules and move on!!

a reply to: [post=19957925]BubbaJoe

Welcome to faith. I don't believe, I'll be saved from what I've done. I believe, I'll be saved from what I did. And because I regret it and repented. I Work hard to not fail twice, three, four times? People point fingures at "Christians" ..Look what they did". When it's not about them, it's about you. They'll answer for themselves..you will answer for you. It's not about being better..it's about knowing right from wrong. I'm a sinner that needs saved. Do I not "judge"? Yes! I do! I tell everyone going down the path I've walked, to not go there. Not because I'm better. But because I actually do care.