Is unconditional love a thing to strive for?

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
I don't believe "unconditional love" exists among humans. There are conditions under which I would stop loving a person in every relationship in my life. The love I feel for my mother (RIP) would be the closest to "unconditional", but if she killed my dog (for no reason), for example, I would stop loving even her.

If a person continues to love someone, regardless of what that person does, I don't think that's love. That's obsession or something. It shows a lack of respect and love for one's self.

In that example, that would mean your mother had gone insane. Would you still not love her, even while putting her in a hospital?

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: CynConcepts
Unconditional love is not ignoring the faults, crimes, or addictions of others. Doing so or living in denial of such, is far from loving that person. Unconditional Love is loving the individual and helping them overcome those undesirables, so they can be the best that they can be, happily. If the individual is not open to correction, you still can openingly love them unconditionally afar. One day, they may recognize that their was no malice in your intent and recognize that you really do care and love them unconditionally.

Not sure if I phrased this understandingly, but I tried.

Crimes (large ones) and addictions, no. They can't be overlooked. Faults...you cannot fix all the faults. You are on a nowhere journey if you are trying to fix all of someone's faults. That NEVER comes to a good end. That is part of unconditional love, you accept some faults. You can make suggestions on some, but you can;t push. Don;t throw stones in the glass house love-nest, both will have faults and the throwing of stones causes bigger and bigger cracks.

Dang, I knew I wasn't writing what I meant! I would agree that one cannot fix all perceived faults in another. Nagging is never unconditional love. Unconditional love is understanding that perceptions are in the eye of the beholder. Correct your own perception and often, you discover there really was no real fault in the other. Hope that helps clarify.

originally posted by: Moresby
Unconditional love means you will always love someone.

It does not mean you will approve of everything they do.

Parental love is the form of unconditional love most commonly experienced. And we all know that when a parent loves us unconditionally that does not prevent them from being highly critical of our behavior. In fact, their love demands it.

The same is true in other unconditional love situations.

I'm not sure unconditional love is something to strive for. It either comes or it doesn't. But I do think everyone should at some time in their lives experience unconditional love. Both giving it and getting it.

Yes, unconditional Love is a real thing. People get caught up in "hippie ideology", unconditional love can lead to disciple. If someone is doing something wrong or harmful the only way to love them is to confront them.

If someone won't stop harming you, you may have to love them from a distance, but you never have to stop loving anyone.

I believe if you want to be perfect, you turn the other cheek. If you want to be righteous then you have a right to defend yourself.

Harm me and I will try to be perfect. Harm my family and you will find me righteously defending them against your hate.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

originally posted by: reldra
In that example, that would mean your mother had gone insane.

That's not what I mean. Of course I would love her if she had gone insane. What I mean is that if she changed enough (without going insane) to kill my dog (FOR NO REASON - as I said), I couldn't justify that in my mind.

I can only speak from my own experience in this matter. I have been in a relationship with a woman that has caused me to "adapt" my line of thinking to accept her "where she is" but also to know that we are both changing and evolving into something different.

It is very difficult for us as humans to be able to place ourselves in another person's shoes...so to speak. But certainly that is the key to being able to accept people that may be doing things that we may not do..or necessarily approve of. When we realize that the same propensities exist in ALL of us and that usually it is the circumstances of our lives that govern our outlook and behavior. Then we will begin to adopt views that will help us to be accepting of ...or at least understanding of other's actions.

I know for myself personally...there is probably not any immoral act that I have not committed in heart if not in action. Jesus said that if we hate someone we have murdered them or if we lust after someone ( if we or they are married ) we have committed adultery. This may sound like a very strict and rigid view...but it is a view intended to foster mercy and forgiveness ...not condemnation. Because he also told us that as we forgive others...so we shall be forgiven.

Now some people may want to use that principle in order to do what ever they want...and not feel condemned. And I would say to them.....go for it if that is what you want. But I feel quite certain that you will find it doesn't take you where you want to go.

But also I would say....realizing that ALL of the same propensities exist in you...to do ANYTHING that you might find yourself condemning someone else for. Will begin to free you from judging and condemning others and will begin to foster true compassion and concern for them and their plight. And it is at that point that you will begin to feel true unconditional love forming within you and also the wisdom to apply it in the most effective way to bring about healing for others and yourself.

originally posted by: Profusion

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: Profusion
Unconditional love is simply that. It is removing your own prejudice and value systems when loving another person as long as it is not directly damaging you. Even then, you can still love at a distance.

That's the mafia code of ethics, is it not? "My husband steals for a living, so what? He treats myself and my children well. Who's to judge?"

I don't know if it is or not. If so, then they understand unconditional love. Keep in mind, though, that staying with somebody out of fear is not unconditional love. If you stay with a spouse who is improving your lifestyle by nefarious means, you are taking part of that as well. Why can't criminals have unconditional love for each other?

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Profusion

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: Profusion
Unconditional love is simply that. It is removing your own prejudice and value systems when loving another person as long as it is not directly damaging you. Even then, you can still love at a distance.

That's the mafia code of ethics, is it not? "My husband steals for a living, so what? He treats myself and my children well. Who's to judge?"

I don't know if it is or not. If so, then they understand unconditional love. Keep in mind, though, that staying with somebody out of fear is not unconditional love. If you stay with a spouse who is improving your lifestyle by nefarious means, you are taking part of that as well. Why can't criminals have unconditional love for each other?

Interesting reasoning. I suppose you're right. I just can't separate the person and the actions sometimes. There are people that I love to this day but I don't communicate with because of what they've done (to myself and/or others). Would I still have unconditional love toward them in your opinion? I suppose if I stopped talking to them because of what they've done to others then I may not be meeting your definition of unconditional love.

Why can't criminals have unconditional love for each other?

On a deeper level, I'm not sure if certain types of hardened criminals can feel love at all. It depends on a lot of factors. We're all criminals sometimes. Nobody drives a car perfectly all the time for example.

I'm not sure psychopaths or sociopaths are capable of love. I'd like to hear your take on that.

originally posted by: Profusion

I'm not sure psychopaths or sociopaths are capable of love. I'd like to hear your take on that.

Sociopaths generally have a diminished sense of empathy and many are challenged by feelings like love. In fact, I would think of it from the opposite direction and pose that people who are incapable of love have sociopathic tendencies.

It is ok to reject ego demonic insanity even if some souls on this level are having a bad spirit complex (the spiritual equivalent of bad boy/girl complex) justifying it thru unconditional love.

Hate and love is part of karma balance. The more karma damage a spirit creates the more it is hated on all level because of the suffering caused. The more karma cleanup a spirit creates the easier it is to feel love/oneness with it since the energy it gives out is pure.

Yeshua even taught this in Luke 14:26:

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

Namaste

hahah this sounds like a bad joke...

ALL are searching for love, we all have our ways but we all try the best we can to feel it. And to even think that "last level" (without condition) would be suffering opposed to complete bliss is ... no even worst than a bad joke!

For anyone who thinks that way I strongly recommend to contemplate a lot and deep. So they can find in themselves the block and throw it out because this is complete nonsense!

When you are in pure love with JUST ONE, is that suffering or a little form of bliss? Why would some even consider that without conditions there would be suffering?! NO! It would be the most unimaginable bliss and that is our pure nature!

But the thing is we in general do not know how to do it but only talk about it, and they who know do not speak. Because it cannot be learned it must be experienced.

For me, it all depends upon how strongly you identify with your feelings and let them be the primary determining factor in your choice of actions.

It is perfectly possible to love someone and object to their behavior, and take action to stop it.

The perception that love is something that is only present when someone does something that is agreeable to us is the way we all start out life, as children. It is the effect of an unformed ego and self awareness. As that is constructed, they are able to better form a theory of mind in terms of others- have an idea of what others feel that is not solely based upon "how they make me feel". (If they make me feel good, that means they love me, if they make me feel bad, they don't love me).

Only as they learn they can love someone even while making the other feel not good, will they be capable of perceiving others might feel that way too.

Some people never really develop this very good. Borderline personality is an example. I love one minute, hate the next, so others love me one minute and can hate me the next. They desperately want to be loved in a stable and enduring way, but because they are relying on proof of that through agreeable actions, it just never happens for them.

Parenting is the perfect example of unconditional love, which the kids might not recognize it as such, but the parent can fully experience it. I discipline because it is necessary, but I still love.

People most often hesitate to love unconditionally exactly because of the fear that they will assimilate the less desireable behaviors or characteristics of the loved. But if you can learn to object to and take action against certain actions or behaviors in others,
then you can certainly do it within yourself. Yes, a part of you may integrate the same feelings, thoughts, or urges as the loved one. Awareness of other brings about awareness of self- at least as far as your potentials.

Whether those potentials become your actions, however, is up to you.
That's why I always liked the idea of working first towards self mastership and integrity, as a spiritual path, before moving on to how one expands their love towards others. Build your boundries, learn self discipline, then you are safe to open the doors to others.

The person who is afraid of being influenced or infected by others' faults or weaknesses, I tend to trust in their perception. That is usually an indication that they know they haven't mastered their self yet, so they need to limit what they let in, for risk of losing control of things.
Don't feel okay with loving all unconditionally yet? Then don't try. Work on yourself for right now. It's not a magic answer to everything for everyone.

a reply to: reldra

I'm sorry if my last post seemed harsh. I was a little frustrated, because I felt misunderstood.

There's a lot of great discussion here and it's interesting to learn what people think.

It seems, though, that some people are talking about "love" and others are talking about "unconditional love". I think we need a definition. I'm assuming that "unconditional love" means Love without conditions. In other words, no matter WHAT you do, I will love you. If you beat me, kill my child, rape my sister, I will still love you. That's what it means to me. And that's why I don't think it's something to strive for - because it negates my commitment to myself - my self-preservation.

I've been with my husband for 25 years, and we married "for better or worse" and I take my vows very seriously. There is an understood caveat, however. We've had some hellish ups and downs over the years, but the love has never waned. I love him in spite of his faults, and he, mine. But my love is conditional. If it ever came to the point where he beat me, killed my child, or raped my sister, I would not stay with him and I'm certain my love would die. That would not fall under the vow of "better or worse", to me, or to him.

Now, if he was disabled, hospitalized, got Alzheimers, or any number of issues, I would still love him and stay with him. He could also do some pretty awful things and I would find a way to accept them, forgive him and love him in spite of it, but ultimately, there ARE conditions.

Do you REALLY love someone without ANY conditions?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Remember, in unconditional love the love is he only thing that is unconditional.

You may have unconditional love for your child. But that doesn't you have to give that child a roof over its head for the rest of its life. The help you give a grown child may be an expression of your love. But it is not the love. You may also choose NOT to help them as an expression of that love. If your love is unconditional the only thing that doesn't leave is the love.

It's less common that romantic love is unconditional than parental love. But if it is the same thing applies. The marriage vows may be an expression of that love. But it's not the love. So you can unconditionally love someone marry them and then find you need to divorce them. And the love continues. If it doesn't the love wasn't unconditional.

As I said up thread, unconditional love probably isn't something to strive for. It just seems to happen. But it's a great thing to experience. Whether you're giving it, or receiving it.

originally posted by: Profusion
Unconditional love is something that's pushed in Western culture as something positive to strive for but is it really a positive thing?

First, I have to say that Knowledge = experience, and it is obvious that all you speak of 'unconditional Love' is from ignorance, your imagination!
Unfortunately, such an utterly transcendental thing as unconditional Love cannot be conceptualized/imagined in the 'conditional' and 'dualistic' 'thoughts'/ego!

In case you don't believe that Western culture promotes unconditional love as a positive thing, check out the following song. I've heard it throughout my life, "unconditional love is the pinnacle" but I don't agree.

Whether you agree with a song or not is irrelevant, you are 'disagreeing' from ignorance!

Here's a hint, so you at least have a clue;

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS recognized by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

You feel free to 'judge' what you do not Know!

My belief is

Of course it is just a 'belief'!
'Beliefs' are an infection of the imagination, not Knowledge/experience!

that when one has unconditional love for another, they generally start to accept the other's faults. The scary thing is, in my experience you can start to love the other's faults as your unconditional love can get jumbled up. Then you can end up loving everything about the person including all of their shortcomings. That can include any proclivities they have to lie, cheat, steal and do any other awful thing imaginable.

And that lack of experience is why this is all ignorant and not true, absurd!
You are like one who has never tasted an apple, yet wax passionately on it's 'flavor'!
Anyone who has real experience of an apple will know immediately that you are singing out of your.... imagination! *__-

I have a thread about such a situation in fictional form:

Sorry, but why would I want to read more ignorance?

Even cold-blooded murder can be tolerated or even accepted in the throes of unconditional love. As can possibly every other crime and evil action.

I can already hear the arguments that will follow, "You love the person, but abhor their wrong actions." It's a nice theory but I've rarely seen anyone that could follow it in practice. Cognitive dissonance, denial, and lots of other human frailties too often get in the way. And what we're left with is people who don't "love the person and abhor their wrong actions", they end up loving the person while ignoring their wrong actions or worse...assimilating their wrong actions into themselves, becoming an accomplice or even a partner in crime with the one they have unconditional love for.

Perhaps speaking of something from 'Knowledge/experience' rather than ignorance will prevent 'abortions' like this post?

a reply to: Profusion

unconditional love is impossible because unconditional means not subject to ANY conditions which would be be a definitive/ perfect form of love. perfection in life does not exist. there is only a spectrum between good and evil and balance is the only way to achieve the most favorable outcome between the two extremes.

originally posted by: dreamlotus1111
unconditional love is impossible

Nonsense!
All who have the experience will affirm!
That you do not, is not uncommon, at this time, but lack of experience/Knowledge and ignorant opinions are bed-mates!

because unconditional means not subject to ANY conditions

Glad you cleared that up! *__-

which would be be a definitive/ perfect form of love. perfection in life does not exist.

And where do you get the Perfection to be able to discern/judge 'Perfection'?
Your vain and judgmental, insanely dualistic, imagination/ego?

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the whole.." - Rene' Guenon

there is only a spectrum between good and evil and balance is the only way to achieve the most favorable outcome between the two extremes.

Bypassing, for the moment that all religions consider such 'judgment' a sin; ALL 'good', and ALL 'evil', exist in the vain judgmental eye (thoughts/imagination, ego) of the beholder!

"We do not see the world as it is, we see it as we are!"

a reply to: Bluesma

You've touched on the logical response. This is an easy one.

ANYone, (well, most anyone), who has ever had a child knows the absolute definition of unconditional love. Wanna know the best way to screw up a kid? Put conditions on your love, or put yourself first. The outcome is rarely pretty.

The best way to ruin ANY interpersonal relationship is to put conditions on the love, or by putting one's self first. It will never work out. It's not true love. "Conditional love" is an oxymoron.

Books have been written on this subject, The best one being, of course, The Bible.

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: dreamlotus1111
unconditional love is impossible

Nonsense!
All who have the experience will affirm!
That you do not, is not uncommon, at this time, but lack of experience/Knowledge and ignorant opinions are bed-mates!

because unconditional means not subject to ANY conditions

Glad you cleared that up! *__-

which would be be a definitive/ perfect form of love. perfection in life does not exist.

And where do you get the Perfection to be able to discern/judge 'Perfection'?
Your vain and judgmental, insanely dualistic, imagination/ego?

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the whole.." - Rene' Guenon

there is only a spectrum between good and evil and balance is the only way to achieve the most favorable outcome between the two extremes.

Bypassing, for the moment that all religions consider such 'judgment' a sin; ALL 'good', and ALL 'evil', exist in the vain judgmental eye (thoughts/imagination, ego) of the beholder!

"We do not see the world as it is, we see it as we are!"

so here you are calling me judgmental and vain and yet you are doing the very same thing. thats to be expected as you are human. and imperfect. as i have stated there is no such thing as perfection despite whatever experience you have had or what you choose to believe...you will always have to come back down to reality as a human being and exist as the human that you currently are. there is really no way around it. you are going to have to interact with others unless you truly isolate yourself in which case you will be miserable and since humans are social by nature...you are no more special or perfect then the cat down the road.

At the center of the concept, is that you can choose whom you want to love unconditionally, if you don't want to love them, for whatever reason, you don't have to, and, convexly if you want to love them, for whatever reason, you can.

- I found myself thinking something to today, provoked by the many debates going on around me about the current events here in France.

On this site, I was struck by the repeated word "hate", as if it has any part to play in what we do or don't do in response to events.

To me, that seems completely irrelevent and off topic. You do not need to hate someone to jail them, or even to kill them. You do not need hate to declare war.

One can love and do any of these things. Why assume there is hate ?

It is absurd. I punished my kids sometimes, without ever hating them, without ever ceasing to love them.
I have fought with people, and never ceased to love them. I have left lovers without ceasing to love them.
I find it confusing, this assumption of others internal emotional states, according to what they do, or what their position is on a topic.