Black/Urban English? Is the inability to speak correctly contributeing to unemployment?

originally posted by: Greenblaz
This problem was well before the internet (twitter, emoticons, etc...). I remember in high school, a classmate of mine got an A on an English paper. The paper was to be written about a job you had or a project you worked on (if you didn't have a job). His paper was 2 pages long and the title... you better sit down... "How I gets mines". This is not a joke, that was word for word the title of his 'A' paper!

Pittsburgh Public Schools

JT

That is an interesting title, if the rest of the paper was written well. 2 pages was good in high school. 2-4 page papers, on a regular basis -once or twice weekly per class- became normal in University. I took classes in Elementary Education. I know 2 pages of anything from a high schooler, unless dragged out with triple spacing or oddly large handwriting...was good.

Funny Essay Titles "How I Gets Mines" is looking a little better.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: crazyewok

I know, dark humour, but it's exactly how some kids (parents who are barely adults themselves) are telling bedtime stories to their kids, if indeed they even do anything other than sit them in front of the TV/tablet/mobile.
Those kids have no chance.

I think there are a lot of educated, suburban, 'old enough' married mothers 'just sitting them in front of the TV/tablet/mobile'. So, that can't be the cause.

Fair one, but at least those kids hear and experience regular English language as they grow up.
Those kids who only hear street speak at home yet also get stuck in front of TV/tablet/mobile screens have limited chances in their communicative development.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: crazyewok

I know, dark humour, but it's exactly how some kids (parents who are barely adults themselves) are telling bedtime stories to their kids, if indeed they even do anything other than sit them in front of the TV/tablet/mobile.
Those kids have no chance.

I think there are a lot of educated, suburban, 'old enough' married mothers 'just sitting them in front of the TV/tablet/mobile'. So, that can't be the cause.

Fair one, but at least those kids hear and experience regular English language as they grow up.
Those kids who only hear street speak at home yet also get stuck in front of TV/tablet/mobile screens have limited chances in their communicative development.

Better speaking than 'street speak' would likely be coming from the TV/Tablet/mobile, so that isn't the case either.

Back to the Op. It certainly contributes, but the cause isn't necessarily known, though early intervention from schools would help. Later intervention from public job training would also help.

a reply to: crazyewok

I would say it isn't the dialect itself that is the issue so much as the inability to learn different dialects and modify one's mode of speech for various situations.

Talk professional in the office and talk "country" in the country with your family. For these people it would be talk professional in the office and talk "urban" in the neighborhood with one's family.

It's like writing. Write formal in your professional communications and whatever else in your informal life.

This conversation always reminds me of Orwell's 1984 and Newspeak.

"It's a beautiful thing, the Destruction of words. Of course the great wastage is in the verbs and adjectives, but there are hundreds of nouns that can be got rid of as well. It isn't only the synonyms; there are also the antonyms. After all, what justification is there for a word, which is simply the opposite of some other word? A word contains its opposite in itself. Take ‘good,’ for instance. If you have a word like ‘good,’ what need is there for a word like ‘bad’? ‘Ungood’ will do just as well – better, because it's an exact opposite, which the other is not. Or again, if you want a stronger version of ‘good,’ what sense is there in having a whole string of vague useless words like ‘excellent’ and ‘splendid’ and all the rest of them? ‘Plusgood’ covers the meaning or ‘doubleplusgood’ if you want something stronger still. Of course we use those forms already, but in the final version of Newspeak there'll be nothing else. In the end the whole notion of goodness and badness will be covered by only six words – in reality, only one word. Don't you see the beauty of that, Winston? It was B.B.'s idea originally, of course," he added as an afterthought

"Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten."

Its not so simple as laid out by Orwell though. There are cultural and general education issues aside from using mass media to endorse deliberate dumbing down to be "trendy". There have always been issues with how different classes of people speak but the way it has become institutionalized and generational through "hip-hop" culture has accelerated this self imposed idiocy. This is not just an issue of race either. This thug culture has been adopted by all races and is the unifying factor of the lowest socioeconomic classes in the first world.

a reply to: reldra

Not if the kid is just watching youtubes.
Where do we disagree?
I'm simply expressing a sadness that uneducated kids having kids and leaving them staring at screens is creating a new less educated generation. Kids with educated parents who can communicate effectively have much better chances despite staring at screens.

I read to my son every evening until he could read well enough himself. The books were printed in correct English. He learned from that in his most influential years.
I recently read a story to a family members toddler who is usually only staring at screens (the family member is a lazy parent) and he was captivated, and enjoyed learning the images of the words as I moved my finger over them.

My family member looked sheepish, and rightly so, lazy parenting.

a reply to: Edumakated

It is an interesting phenomenon. As I said, my nephew adapts quite well. My generation, not so much. It didn't seem as pronounced a difference when I was in school. There are certainly differences in southern accents as well. I am from North Carolina. My partner is a military brat and has a mild southern accent. She has a brother-in-law born and bred in Georgia. When we go to visit, I understand him even though there are slight differences. My partner and her daughters look entirely lost most of the time and I have to translate. It is rather amusing when he speaks and they all look at me with question marks on their faces.

originally posted by: grainofsand
On a related note, people from Glasgow who live years in England and refuse to use correct English words in place of their strong dialect and accent.

I got off the train in Glasgow and a white Buddhist monk tried to talk to me. At first I thought he was speaking some other language, only after repeating himself about 4 times did I realise he was speaking English! I thought it funny I could better understand immigrants in London than a Scot in Glasgow.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

And there is also the issue of volume control. A cultured person does not speak loudly. But for the poorest among us, speaking loudly is part of who you are.

Why else do you think Europeans specifically love to denigrate Americans as loud and obnoxious? Being loud is a mark of your social class. What they are really doing is insulting our low-class natures.

a reply to: ketsuko

Stereotype much?!

*Edit*
I'm 'European' and I don't think the way you asserted.
There are loud people all over, this is about communicating effectively, not class war.

Bruv right... don't get it twisted yeah, you're takin' bare libs wiv dis thread man.
Ain't abaht no yoot speak or urban talk or nuffink mate, dis real street talk yeah!!
I gets bare jobs innit!!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: crazyewok

I would say it isn't the dialect itself that is the issue so much as the inability to learn different dialects and modify one's mode of speech for various situations.

Talk professional in the office and talk "country" in the country with your family. For these people it would be talk professional in the office and talk "urban" in the neighborhood with one's family.

It's like writing. Write formal in your professional communications and whatever else in your informal life.

I can agree with that.

I do have my somewhat own local dialect with its own slang.

But I take great pains to separate that from the language I use in the work place.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: ketsuko

Stereotype much?!

*Edit*
I'm 'European' and I don't think the way you asserted.
There are loud people all over, this is about communicating effectively, not class war.

So, you haven't heard the popular stereotype of Americans as loud, boorish, Hawaiian shirt wearing, typically overweight people?

Heck, I've heard Americans denigrate Americans with that one that they picked up from Europeans.

But that's the origin of loud. It's a low class thing, and I was taught it in my teaching courses as a mark of poverty, or poor people. They taught us that if our kids were loud, we were to expect that and not treat them too harshly because we were told that children raised in poor circumstance often had loud as part of their culture.

This is part of the curriculum for inner city teachers.

a reply to: grainofsand
Glass houses, my European friend.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: grainofsand
Glass houses, my European friend.

What? How has the saying "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" have any relevance to what I posted?
Perhaps I missed something...Ooh a communication breakdown lol

This popped into my head and just about sums it up....

a reply to: ketsuko

Oh yep, I've heard all sorts of stereotypes but by asserting that Europeans think that about US folk then you are perpetuating a stereotype yourself.
I'm Welsh and as a nation of 3 million people and 11 million or so sheep we get our own stereotype lol, but I don't bleat and whine that all English folk have that perception of people from Wales.
They're just stereotypes...lighten up maybe?


*Edit again*
On-topic, regarding communication skills, the assertion that a higher percentage of people unable to speak business/official English will be found in social-housing state owned rented estates stopped being a stereotype before I can ever remember.
It's a generational thing, and tragic.

a reply to: grainofsand

Sorry, I had to please forgive me. I am from Texas but I have lived all over the world (just spent the most time in Texas) so do forgive me.

The inability to spell a thread title correctly is probably more indicative of the educational level and subsequent relevance of said person's position. Especially when spell checking is baked into the forum software, making spelling errors even less excusable.