Land of the Free: America has the Worlds Highest Incarceration Rate in the World.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: theantediluvian

What kind of authoritarian doublespeak is this? The greatest uptick in incarcerations is due to the passage of insane drug laws. How is this a result of greater freedom?

Oppressed people tend to not have much of a will, they follow authority mindlessly. Americans are not oppressed and so have great will to do all kinds of things...

I see that over 60 countries have all forms of pot as still illegal, and even 9 countries around Europe too, so why are they not busting at the seems?

Would you say the scandinavien countries are oppressed then? (Denmark, Norway, Sweden) or how come they have some of the lowest numbers then??

I'm just gonna say a better study is needed.

And a lot of "Why's" answered how they came to the results.

originally posted by: ghostrager
America incarcerates the most citizens per capita. Even if you can argue anomalies in how these are calculated, you still won't bring the statistics into the upper half.

Even if you do prove that the US is barely in the upper half, it's still no less of a shame.

I'm not arguing any anomalies or the numbers, I'm just stating why I think people in America tend to commit more crime. The question is whether our numbers are a good or bad thing? Are we more successful/efficient at getting the bad guy? My example of Chad as one of the lowest percentage shows that low is not necessary good, so one would also think high is not necessary bad.

a reply to: ghostrager

Also the only thing America is #1 in.

Greatest country in the world my ass.

originally posted by: theantediluvian

1. The War on Drugs
2. The decline in manufacturing jobs which led to huge ghettos in Rust Belt cities
3. Privatization of the public mental healthcare system
4. The influence of the Broken Windows theory

Lets add...

1. The destruction of the traditional family that has led to dysfunctional families, single parent families, children raising children families.
2. Absence of morals and values.
3. Social think that quick and easy is better.

originally posted by: NoFearsEqualsFreeMan
Would you say the scandinavien countries are oppressed then? (Denmark, Norway, Sweden) or how come they have some of the lowest numbers then??

I stated one reason. What you are suggesting is social influences, so you tell me? They have lower prison numbers because they do not break the law as part of their social structure. Americans have a much more aggressive social structure. In Denmark, Norway and Sweden they want to know the speed limit so they stay under it, in America we want to know the speed limit so that we keep it just 20 over so when we get our ticket we do not lose our licence. A rather different mentality there don't you think? So back to my question, is a high percentage a bad thing?

a reply to: ghostrager

I get so tired of people posting stuff like this as if it's something none of us have heard before. Maybe I am just being bitter but ATS, between the trolls and partisanship, ridiculous conspiracy theories and people with obvious mental illness has seriously gone down the tubes. You get so many armchair experts here that no one ever bothers to listen to the people worth listening to, people are more concerned with posting a 'me too, look how brilliant I am!'

originally posted by: Xtrozero


I'm not arguing any anomalies or the numbers, I'm just stating why I think people in America tend to commit more crime. The question is whether our numbers are a good or bad thing? Are we more successful/efficient at getting the bad guy? My example of Chad as one of the lowest percentage shows that low is not necessary good, so one would also think high is not necessary bad.

Americans commit more jail-able crimes not because we somehow have a "free" society (we most certainly don't), but because we have made laws criminalizing more things. Drugs being the biggest, but depending on what part of the country you live in, we've also criminalized homelessness, poverty, mental illness. Not to mention, of course, the other non-violent vices, like prostitution. So if you make more things a criminal offense, you will end up with more criminals. However, to say that we have more crime because we are a "free" society and thus, are freer to commit crimes, is a total fallacy. I have been to countries that are a lot more permissive, and in many ways, "freer", yet those countries still can't even get in the neighborhood of our per capita incarceration.

Simply put, we have higher incarceration rates because we have a legal system that is, to put it mildly, predatory. And predators can't survive without an ample supply of prey, so the system creates prey via the laws it enforces.

When you realize this, then the other numbers, the actual numbers of violent or problematic criminals, the people who actually have done something to harm another person or their property, begin to make much more sense.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

I find those numbers to be suspect. Do you think China, Middle Eastern nations and other developing countries care about reporting accurate incarceration numbers.

Other countries just kill them...

I think this is a result of freedom, or those who can not handle it. When your oppressed you tend to not do crime, when you have all the freedom, idle minds....you get the point.

Or what you just said is bollocks and the us does infact have draconian laws and a broken criminal justice system......


Look at new Zealand, that is meant to be number 1 in the world for freedom and its prison population is a fraction of the US.

UK scores about equal with the US on most freedom charts (hell only thing you can do we cant is own a gun) and our prison population is lower. Same with most developed nations.


Only other option is Americans are more prone to crime....

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: ghostrager
That's right. America is #1! But this time it's in how many people they incarcerate compared to the world's other countries. The USA has 4.4% of the world's population but incarcerates 22% of the world's prisoners.

I find those numbers to be suspect. Do you think China, Middle Eastern nations and other developing countries care about reporting accurate incarceration numbers.

I cannot see why not. Any allegation made about the integrity of the prision rates of other countries could quite easily be leveled at the US too. Former president Jimmy Carter recently said Americia is an oligarky with unlimited corruption.

Secondly the integiry of the US is in the gutter. One only has too look at its pronouncements regarding Ugraine, Iraq, Afghanstan, Syria etc to see that their cridibility in terms of honesty is below gutter level.

You have saggy pants violations in some parts of the USA. So if you've got your jeans a bit saggy the police can bust you, if you don't turn up to court and can't afford the fine you can go to jail.
countercurrentnews.com/2015/07/law-makes-saggy-
www.bbc.co.uk...
countercurrentnews.com...

So are Americans more criminally minded than other populations in the world?

Is the reason for such high drug crime, that Americans are trying to escape the reality of living in America?

Probably not, I think it's a broken corrupt legal system. Also whoever thought private prisons were a good thing need their heads knocking together.

a reply to: Nexttimemaybe

I kind of think of this from 2 perspectives , local and national. Local, I'm from Chicago , not all people in Chicago are from Chicago, I am from Chicago, born raised and lived my whole life here. There are the people like me who have been here forever and have built a respectable life through honest hard work, then there are the people who come here from other places with the mindset that they are going to be the next Al Capone. Us real Chicagoans are sickened by all these scumbag losers that come to our city with this mentality. I don't think they lock them up for long enough around here. Now I have to equate that on the national level, people from all around the world come here with that same mentality that they are going to come to America and take advantage of the hard-working generous people here. I think the hard working generous people have had enough that and are ready to end America's generosity.

originally posted by: Azureblue
I cannot see why not. Any allegation made about the integrity of the prision rates of other countries could quite easily be leveled at the US too.

Really? How many unreported prisoners do you think there are in teh United States prison system?

a reply to: DonVoigt

How I miss the west side, where 12 year olds shout out to passing cars asking if they want rocks or blows. One has to wonder why addicts and street dealers are punished while those who actually profit and perpetuate the gang situation seem untouchable.

Someone I know who has a very different viewpoint often says that the Nat Guard should patrol the streets, stop and frisk and confiscate any weapons or drugs. Sure it will be an illegal search, but that's the point. The guy doesn't go to jail, but can't exactly say to the judge that he wants his stolen glock and ounce of diesel back. Interesting proposal, no?

originally posted by: crazyewok

Only other option is Americans are more prone to crime....

As I stated in other posts, we are.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: NoFearsEqualsFreeMan
Would you say the scandinavien countries are oppressed then? (Denmark, Norway, Sweden) or how come they have some of the lowest numbers then??

I stated one reason. What you are suggesting is social influences, so you tell me? They have lower prison numbers because they do not break the law as part of their social structure. Americans have a much more aggressive social structure. In Denmark, Norway and Sweden they want to know the speed limit so they stay under it, in America we want to know the speed limit so that we keep it just 20 over so when we get our ticket we do not lose our licence. A rather different mentality there don't you think? So back to my question, is a high percentage a bad thing?

Sorry for the late answer

Iam from denmark, and there is NO WAY your gonna find a dane who drives under the speed limit
But, i think your right about the mentality here vs USA, but the last 10-20 years, we have become more like "you" mentally and thats a shame, because we had a very peacefull country (still is, but not in the same way)

I think part of the reason, is differences in country size. We dont have so many or so big ghettoes, like you do over there, we got lots of smaller towns, where everybody know each other, and that helps keeping the peace
Another thing, and an importen one, is that we dont got so many poor people and we got a system that helps those in need, so we dont have to steal to survive
We also got a lot more forgiving justice system - if you get a life sentence in Denmark, you can get paroled after 12 years, and people get out from that sentence after serving an average of 16 years - we have one guy, famous in denmark for having killed 4 cops in the 70´s and he is still serving time - why? only because he said he would do the same thing again, if he where in the same situation, when he was to a parole hearing...

So I think our welfare, who takes care of the poor, our mentality and lower prison time served (goverment runned prisons, not private) is a big part of our lower percentage
You still got more and more crime, so obviously long sentences doesnt work - the way to lower crime, is to make sure people can get what they need, so they dont need to steal - if you want to remove crime completly, just make things legal

So is it a bad thing? Yes i think so
Its a sign of a population who is not in harmony, you got a lot of problems over there
Is it worse than the lower numbers? No i dont think so
It just means you guys have a lot more cleaning up to do, than we do :b

Edit: Do you know where the most crimes takes place??? ...In prison... and this is true all over the world
So if we cant even keep the laws in prison, why bother? If we do try to enforce the law, in prison, prisoners will riot, and it would become very clear why this system doesnt work...

originally posted by: NoFearsEqualsFreeMan

Sorry for the late answer

Iam from denmark, and there is NO WAY your gonna find a dane who drives under the speed limit

But, i think your right about the mentality here vs USA, but the last 10-20 years, we have become more like "you" mentally and thats a shame, because we had a very peacefull country (still is, but not in the same way)

I was over there for three weeks earlier this year working with your military, so ya my analogy about breaking laws was most likely a poor example...hehe

I think part of the reason, is differences in country size. We dont have so many or so big ghettoes, like you do over there, we got lots of smaller towns, where everybody know each other, and that helps keeping the peace

I think this is a big part of it.When you look at America to live in CA and then to fly to NY that would be 3000 miles when we look at Denmark to Moscow that is only 1500 miles. There is a hell of a lot of difference between you and mother Russia, and it is the same here in the states too. There are many cities I would not live in, but where I do, crime is almost non-existent. I'm sure the top 10 bad cities here to live in skew the number quite a bit.

Another thing, and an importen one, is that we dont got so many poor people and we got a system that helps those in need, so we dont have to steal to survive
We also got a lot more forgiving justice system - if you get a life sentence in Denmark, you can get paroled after 12 years, and people get out from that sentence after serving an average of 16 years - we have one guy, famous in denmark for having killed 4 cops in the 70´s and he is still serving time - why? only because he said he would do the same thing again, if he where in the same situation, when he was to a parole hearing...

Every state is different but life is around 25 years here if they have no other attached restriction. Manson has gone in front of a parole board 12 times now...like you cop killer.

I feel a socialized system works very well when the population is limited and you have the majority contributing to the whole. In Denmark with your 5 million about 60% of that is in the work force, the other 40% is kids and retires. This is a good ratio for a socialized system to prosper well, but be careful you lost 5% since 2008. When you look at larger countries like America of 330 million more than 1/2 are not in the work force, so the burden would be tremendous on a socialized system and we are seeing some countries faltering because their socialized system is starting to be over burden with too many non-workers. The question would be what state would Denmark be in if 1 million Syrian refugees came into your country?

So I think our welfare, who takes care of the poor, our mentality and lower prison time served (goverment runned prisons, not private) is a big part of our lower percentage
You still got more and more crime, so obviously long sentences doesnt work - the way to lower crime, is to make sure people can get what they need, so they dont need to steal - if you want to remove crime completly, just make things legal

We are working on that....but those cases are about 15% of the population, the other 85% really need to be there, not to rehab as much as keep out of the public. One problem we have is 77% of released prisoners end back in jail within 5 years. I think this is why we are top, and the reason is extremely complicated. One reason is once your in the system it is hard to get out. Even getting a DUI can ruin a person's career/life with the demands if not met mean more stiffer demands that can not be met either. Another part is we have a large number of people that come from extremely crappy families to the point they find gangs a better family. We have 1.5 million gang members that most likely ALL spend time in jail a number to times throughout their lives.

Most of America does not see this because they do not live in areas where gang thrive and they have decent family lifestyles.