How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

a reply to: vethumanbeing

All I see is the extreme measures you are using in attempt to portray the truth for something false. Jesus did not kill himself not stopping others from killing him was a sacrifice though. And its good for all time even for those who lived and died before him and certainly for all those who are yet to live and die.
But unlike you I can make no comparison to Isis because Jesus didn't kill himself and he didn't kill anyone else either...
Whatever you have attempted was feeble foolish and ill contrived.
The view you portray and the statements made by you have no bearing in reality or reason...
But what's to he expected from someone so confused which fully believes themselves to be God?

a reply to: Ghost147

I haven't read this thread at all except the original poster's question.
Well there are many different questions and aspects of "How was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?" that are all very good questions and to me, as a Christian I have had to mull over my own questions to come to my own understanding and able to keep the faith so to speak, or not. Well, I've kept the faith.

The question to me was more about the actual mechanics of it, not how large of a sacrifice it would have been.

Like couldn't God just have come to Earth shown us the way to live, and then go back to Heaven? Couldn't he have come down in an already adult human body, or even in a body of some spiritual form, put himself onto an alter and had a priest do the honors? Or even just call fire down from heaven to burn his body up?

Then even with whatever body that he sacrificed, how does the death of the body actually pay for anything that I've done in my life 2000 years later?

Why did there have to be a sacrifice at all?

Babies don't commit sin, but why do they die? How come babies die and Jesus died, neither sin, but only Jesus is resurrected, why?

Can Jesus' sacrifice pay for all of man-kinds sin, or does can it only pay for people that believe in him?

Why are there seemingly contradictory aspects of salvation for Christians found in the Bible? Is a Christian saved by good deeds or by faith? If it is faith, then we can live however we like and still be saved right? If that's not completely true, then there has to be some amount of good that we can do in our life that makes us able to enter heaven?

Then you add in your question that 30ish years on Earth and only a one day arrest, trial, mocking, beating and crucifixion doesn't seem much to have to go through in the eons and eons of eternity of being in heaven right?

Well all these questions I have answers that for me satisfy the questions wholeheartedly. For others, nothing will satisfy any of these questions.

The bottom line though is IF Jesus IS God as Thomas blurted out "My Lord and my God!" when Jesus materializes after his death and has Thomas stick his finger in the holes of his palms and into the side of his torso, then it stands to reason it doesn't matter how much anyone grasps any of the answers to the above questions. God is God regardless (in the scenario Jesus is indeed God).

All of the questions I have had regarding all of the Bible, and all of world history and all of world religion and of science and of space and of time and of Christian theology have all been answered in ways that to ME, as well as miracles (or VERY VERY unusual coincidences) I have witnessed allow me to say "My Lord and my God!".

All of the answers for me, may do nothing for you. They might all be foolish and stupid.

Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians as kept in the Bible, Chapter 1 verses 18-31

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

a reply to: SelectStart

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Pretty words, are they? What cross, do you suppose, was Paul talking about and what is "The Message of The Cross?" (Please keep in mind that "Jesus Christ" wasn't crucified on a "cross", and that crosses were holy symbols in several popular and contemporary religions at the time.)

19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Yeppers. Everyone dies and the rain falls on the righteous as well as the wicked. So what?

a reply to: windword

Jesus was crucified on a cross...
The one he carried to his death...

a reply to: 5StarOracle

But, the cross was a holy symbol way before Jesus was, supposedly, nailed to a "cross", like thousands of other Jewish men.

Here's a coin commemorating Julius Caesar, and honoring his "forgiveness". Notice the cross?



Hes'a museum replica of the infamous wax effigy of Julius Caesar, on a cross.



Here's another ancient holy cross symbol.

What, so you suppose is the "Message of the Cross"?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: vethumanbeing

5Star: All I see is the extreme measures you are using in attempt to portray the truth for something false. Jesus did not kill himself not stopping others from killing him was a sacrifice though.

What was the point of the dramatics? Jesus was telling the Jew (his constituency) to not be so materialistic. He had a better plan; called thus "the kingdom of God is within you" (simple meditation techniques he learned when in the orient).

5Star: And its good for all time even for those who lived and died before him and certainly for all those who are yet to live and die. But unlike you I can make no comparison to Isis because Jesus didn't kill himself and he didn't kill anyone else either.

Oh yes he did vicariously for centuries. The Roman Church was brutal. The Reformation equally brutal.

5Star: The view you portray and the statements made by you have no bearing in reality or reason.

I know and concur; religious dogma is a fools fantasy.

5Star: But what's to he expected from someone so confused which fully believes themselves to be God?

No confusion at all; to be God is different from being of God.

Pretty words, are they? What cross, do you suppose, was Paul talking about and what is "The Message of The Cross?" (Please keep in mind that "Jesus Christ" wasn't crucified on a "cross", and that crosses were holy symbols in several popular and contemporary religions at the time.)

a reply to: windword


Do you know what the Message of The Cross is ?

Could your last picture be about the Em field of humans ?

maybe a representation of the ida pingala and sushumna

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: 5StarOracle

But, the cross was a holy symbol way before Jesus was, supposedly, nailed to a "cross", like thousands of other Jewish men.

Here's a coin commemorating Julius Caesar, and honoring his "forgiveness". Notice the cross?

Hes'a museum replica of the infamous wax effigy of Julius Caesar, on a cross.

Here's another ancient holy cross symbol.

What, so you suppose is the "Message of the Cross"?

It would matter, if you had something of substance, but you do not. Of course the Ankh existed long before Jesus was crucified, so what? Oh wait this proves something at all about what a leader of the Pharisees that used to kill Christians because of his Piety, and now writes letters to Christians regarding Jesus being the Jewish Messiah?!? So this highly regarded very zealous Jew suddenly becomes smitten with a symbol somehow based on crosses already existing in other ancient religions that have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus? Religions that the type of Jew Paul was would have considered idol worship, were somehow connected to YHWH and Jesus? Umm, no Beavis, try again. The cult of the Christians are HISTORICALLY attested to as being a new cult that had definitive beliefs. Sure there have been offshoots and splinters, but even Paul warns about the splintering in the same epistle I quoted from. Read the Bible and understand it. If you don't believe it, well I'll pray for ya, but it's your choice. However this crud that substitutes your own story in place of the original and easily understandable one is far fetched.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: SelectStart

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Pretty words, are they? What cross, do you suppose, was Paul talking about and what is "The Message of The Cross?" (Please keep in mind that "Jesus Christ" wasn't crucified on a "cross", and that crosses were holy symbols in several popular and contemporary religions at the time.)

19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Yeppers. Everyone dies and the rain falls on the righteous as well as the wicked. So what?

I did not have my Polaroid handy with my time machine, in order to prove this to you. I'm afraid you didn't have yours either. So this little point you have, you will have to do MUCH better than just waiving a magic wand to get rid of evidence. What evidence do you have that Jesus was not crucified on a cross? Wait, your evidence that he was not, is that there is an Ankh or any other cross in other religions? Strike one. Try again.

Edit: BTW im not down for some ridiculous talk of what is considered evidence or not. Or by you changing the subject on me. The photo comment I made, if you didnt understand it, was meant to tell you please, give me more if you can. Your first attempt was rather sterile and weak. Give me 2-3 historian's sources from within 200 years after Christ that stick Jesus onto Ra, Horus, Osiris or any other ancient religion as being a part of it or robbing the other religion of it's message or parts, especially related to the STORY of the cross (not just the symbol nakedly)

Furthermore just so that anyone doesn't think that I fell into the argument by mistake...My intention is two fold with my proposition to Wordward is. 1. To show that historically there are historians from 100 years or so after Jesus which in the time of no internet was not a very long time, all the way until today ALL discussing the same story and debating the same story exaxtly as depicted in the recorded New Testament collection. Jesus crucified, resurrected, messiah. 2. For whoever might have thought he wasn't crucified or didn't exist, just see all the historians that wrote about him, the debating Christians that did, and offshoots of religions that closely resemble Christianity or suppose to absorb it into a "more ancient" or new age, that all debate the story of the Biblical Jesus.

Basically whats old is new. People have been saying this and that about Jesus since day 1 of his preaching. Nothing has changed. People either 1. Accept the Bible basically as written but deny the faith in the God as described. 2. Accept the Bible basically as written and believe in the very simple message that Jesus is the Messiah. 3. Do not accept the Bible as being basically what it claims as it is written, and substitute your own version.

99% of people fall into one of those three categories. I can't think of another category but left the 1% out incase somehow your in another category.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: 5StarOracle

Hes'a museum replica of the infamous wax effigy of Julius Caesar, on a cross.

That's not a wax Caesar, but a a Roman tropaion ==> en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus was executed (well, he did manage to find his way through it, so he survived) for having laid claim on the Holy Land and challenged Rome as Tiberius was reported dead (either in 36 or 37 AD). During the last years of his reign, Tiberius was often rumoured dead since he was sick/fruity and others did the actual ruling of Rome. This coup attempt made Jesus a persona non grata and he was erased from history, what the Romans would call Damnatio Memoriae ==> en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Okay. Thanks for pointing that out. Was a tropaion erected in Julius Caesar's honor, memorializing his "Crossing of the Rubicon", do you suppose.

Here's an ancient woodblock print reproduction, supposedly(?), of a commemorative wax effigy of Julius Caesar, suspended from above on a "cross".

THE RESURRECTION OF JULIUS CAESAR ON THE DAY OF THE LIBERALIA

On Friday, 17 March 44 BCE, the day of the Liberalia, the festival of Liber Pater (Bacchus/Dionysus), Julius Caesar received his state funeral and resurrected as god by the will of the people. A wax effigy of his slain body was presented, raised above the bier, at the exact spot where a cruciform tropaeum stood, and was then rotated for the attending crowd. The image above shows a reconstruction of Caesar’s simulacrum on the cross from the available archaeological sources.

Jesus was executed

So were 1000s of Jewish men.

My point, and my question, was meant to address "which cross does one suppose Paul was referring to?" and "What is the message of the cross?" Seeing how crosses had been considered holy symbols for centuries before the advent of a 1st century Semite named Jesus.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Okay. Thanks for pointing that out. Was a tropaion erected in Julius Caesar's honor, memorializing his "Crossing of the Rubicon", do you suppose.

The Roman legions typically made tropaia of the body armor of their conquered enemies. If they defeated some Barbarian horde, they would make such a scarecrow to strike fear in their enemies. Jesus was a living Tropaion.

Here's an ancient woodblock print reproduction, supposedly(?), of a commemorative wax effigy of Julius Caesar, suspended from above on a "cross".

THE RESURRECTION OF JULIUS CAESAR ON THE DAY OF THE LIBERALIA

On Friday, 17 March 44 BCE, the day of the Liberalia, the festival of Liber Pater (Bacchus/Dionysus), Julius Caesar received his state funeral and resurrected as god by the will of the people. A wax effigy of his slain body was presented, raised above the bier, at the exact spot where a cruciform tropaeum stood, and was then rotated for the attending crowd. The image above shows a reconstruction of Caesar’s simulacrum on the cross from the available archaeological sources.

Jesus was executed

So were 1000s of Jewish men.

My point, and my question, was meant to address "which cross does one suppose Paul was referring to?" and "What is the message of the cross?" Seeing how crosses had been considered holy symbols for centuries before the advent of a 1st century Semite named Jesus.

Well, Jesus was a Caesar and owned the whole of the known world as part of his birthrights (his father Joseph was in reality the exiled Caesarion Ptolomy Caesar in hiding), The Roman Empire through his paternal grandfather Julius Caesar, the Greek and Egyptian empires through his paternal grandmother Cleopatra, and the throne of David through his mother, Mary. The Caesars were also related to king David, and this is possibly the reason behind names like Julia (mother of Julius) and Julius (as in Jewlia and Jewlius). Julius was named Caesar since he was delivered with a c-section, and also gave name to this birth procedure.

a reply to: SelectStart

There's this evidence explained in the video below, presented in Babloyi's thread HERE



There were a lot of "Christians" who didn't think that "The Christ" ever took on human form "in the flesh".

show that historically there are historians from 100 years or so after Jesus which in the time of no internet was not a very long time, all the way until today ALL discussing the same story and debating the same story exaxtly as depicted in the recorded New Testament collection.

Even the New Testament can't get its details exactly right, and contradicts itself regularly.

Jesus the Nazarene taught nothing new, that already wasn't in scriptures and being practiced in other sects and cults.

The Book of John and those books supposedly authored by Paul and their New Testament philosophy, aligned with, summarized and expanded on the influencial and intellectual debates and discussions spurred on by Philo of Alexandria and his writings on The LOGOS.

As well, we have Plutarch and his master piece, Thrice-Greatest Hermes, Vol. 1, THE PROPER REASON ACCORDING TO PLUTARCH

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Well, Jesus was a Caesar and owned the whole of the known world as part of his birthrights (his father Joseph was in reality the exiled Caesarion Ptolomy Caesar in hiding), The Roman Empire through his paternal grandfather Julius Caesar, the Greek and Egyptian empires through his paternal grandmother Cleopatra, and the throne of David through his mother, Mary. The Caesars were also related to king David, and this is possibly the reason behind names like Julia (mother of Julius) and Julius (as in Jewlia and Jewlius). Julius was named Caesar since he was delivered with a c-section, and also gave name to this birth procedure.

Yep, that is certainly compelling narrative for an historic Jesus, and it makes a lot of sense.

Jesus was a living Tropaion.

As were the 6000 Jewish men that were crucified outside the city walls during the Siege of Jerusalem, I suppose.

originally posted by: windword

Jesus was a living Tropaion.

As were the 6000 Jewish men that were crucified outside the city walls during the Siege of Jerusalem, I suppose.

There are several examples of crucifixion described in the Old Testament, as in Deuteronomy 21:22f

« And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance. »

Also see Genesis 40:19,

« In three days Pharaoh will lift up your head—from you!—and hang you on a tree. And the birds will eat the flesh from you. »

Esther 9:13,

« And Esther said, “If it please the king, let the Jews who are in Susa be allowed tomorrow also to do according to this day’s edict. And let the ten sons of Haman be hanged on the gallows.” »


and Joshua 10:26:

« And afterward Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening. »

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Wow...as always your creativity is appreciated. So lets see if I can put this together. The Romans crucify Jesus. ...but sometime during the night he manages to wiggle his way off of the cross and escape.

Then because the Romans are pissed because he managed to get away....they decide to say that he never existed.

But later they change their mind and decide to make the religion based on his existence.....the state religion.

Wow....they sound alot like modern government.

Thank you for this information....it is very entertaining.

a reply to: HarryJoy

Jesus commanded the Legions, depending on the faith or loyalty of the legionaires. Jesus was lucky, his Son Eli managed to find the chief Centurion and had him order his blind spearman to take down and heal Jesus from his collapsed lung, and gave his body to Joseph et co. Centurio Longinus was himself executed for having let a death convict get away. «There is no greater love....»

a reply to: windword

It's like Jesus going, — OK, if I can't have my riches and my inheritance, I'll give Babylon syphilis and strike her lovers, and then I'll bring about the Renaissance and fasion a crown for Truth, I will take back what's mine and rightfully so, and I will break their crosses across their necks and make them drink my cursed blood for all eternity, f***ing bastards!

It was a sacrifice because all Jesus did wrong was preach the gospel, contrary to the religious leaders of the time. It was the church that wanted Jesus to be crucified because they felt Jesus was being blasphemous. And, that church still exists today. It's called the Vatican.

Lete me also add:

Crucifying Him was a way to crush the message that He was spreading. His crucifixion was believed to be a curse to the Jews; the people He originally came here to set free. This is why Jewish people don't believe Jesus was/is the Messiah, because "Cursed is anyone that hangs from a tree." -(Deuteronomy 21:23, Gal 3:13)