How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Ghost147

My view on this particular matter is this...

Jesus knew he would be killed if he came to this mess of a planet... but he came anyways because the people were lost when it came to knowledge of God.

it was his choice to come, and knew his own fate if he did so

Gives credence to some that believe we actually CHOOSE our life, on Earth. We were up for the challenge before we were conceived in the womb.

Besides that, wouldn't MLK, Jr.s assassination be somewhat of equal value? Wasn't he sacrificed for preaching God's word??? Sure, you could sprinkle in the race card, if you don't believe the CONSPIRACY side of MLK's death; but at the end of the day, he was killed because people were coming together. Same case for Jesus.

TPTB CAN'T HAVE PEOPLE WAKING UP and finding themselves. And they certainly won't allow some other person to ruin their domination over us.

Jesus was setting the captives free. Not really good for business. lol

originally posted by: TzarChasm

They fear theocratic dictatorship.

Name your poison, political religion, nationalism, communism, ethnicity, corporativism and a bunch others. All are motivators that have done great harm in the world. Did you notice that I said political religion since there are people who want to use it as an agenda for non-religious goals such as the Great Crusades, ISIS and many others in the middle east, Zionism, the Vatican and so on. The vast majority of religion is just people wanting to do live their faith.

When you say dictatorship that is a rather big, so what do you mean? Fighting for the removal of an old statue of the 10 commandments, or a nativity scene and so on are they all a part of this anti-theocratic dictatorship?

The funny part is this vision of a world without religion, oh it would be so good, kind of like Russia with Stalin (40+ million starved, killed, extreme living conditions), China as they entered into communism (100 million starved, killed, extreme living conditions) two examples where religion was outlawed, and just about everywhere we see death destruction today religion is not the main motivator though if the group does have a religion of some kind then many just blame that.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: TzarChasm

They fear theocratic dictatorship.

Name your poison, political religion, nationalism, communism, ethnicity, corporativism and a bunch others. All are motivators that have done great harm in the world. Did you notice that I said political religion since there are people who want to use it as an agenda for non-religious goals such as the Great Crusades, ISIS and many others in the middle east, Zionism, the Vatican and so on. The vast majority of religion is just people wanting to do live their faith.

When you say dictatorship that is a rather big, so what do you mean? Fighting for the removal of an old statue of the 10 commandments, or a nativity scene and so on are they all a part of this anti-theocratic dictatorship?

The funny part is this vision of a world without religion, oh it would be so good, kind of like Russia with Stalin (40+ million starved, killed, extreme living conditions), China as they entered into communism (100 million starved, killed, extreme living conditions) two examples where religion was outlawed, and just about everywhere we see death destruction today religion is not the main motivator though if the group does have a religion of some kind then many just blame that.

Have you seen the movie Priest? Something like that, but without all the supernatural beasties.

a reply to: Ghost147

When I was young and religious I had not doubt Jesus died to make God forgive our sins....now it doesn't make any sense at all! Let's pretend Jesus really existed (which I doubt as there is no historical evidence, besides the Bible which is not historical).

If Jesus was the son of God and part of God, then God really sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.
It makes no sense.

If Jesus was human when he 'died' then it was a human sacrifice to appease God, his father. How can anybody worship a God who gets his kicks with human sacrifice?

If Jesus did it willingly then he committed suicide, just like 'suicide by cops' in modern time. I believe suicide is a sin in the Bible. He committed a sin to save us from our sins?

Sacrifice is 'giving up something valued for the sake of others'. Jesus didn't sacrifice anything: he resurrected and sits in heaven with his father, which is exactly where he was before he came to Earth as a human. He didn't sacrifice his life (as he is not dead and gone). He didn't sacrifice his throne or place in heaven. A couple of hours of human pain is nothing compared to how some suffer for years, even children. And, like another poster said, men crucify themselves every Easter in the Philippines, nothing out of this world.

a reply to: Agartha

One factor is that people can't help but relate to the crucifixion from a human point of view. They can't relate to it any other way. So they miss the microcosmic scale of it, having never experienced the macro perspective. Like living on earth vs gazing at it from the window on your way to the Andromeda galaxy. A rough analogy, but I hope it makes the point.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Agartha

One factor is that people can't help but relate to the crucifixion from a human point of view. They can't relate to it any other way. So they miss the microcosmic scale of it, having never experienced the macro perspective. Like living on earth vs gazing at it from the window on your way to the Andromeda galaxy. A rough analogy, but I hope it makes the point.

Absolutely! We are cosmologically insignificant. The problem is that our senses and our human experiences are all we have to make sense of things and unfortunately religions limit our curiosity and our questioning.... religions simplify things by giving us rules that make us feel safe, in a strange way.

We are not the centre of the universe, we are unimaginably small in this infinite universe.... and I find that beautiful.

originally posted by: Agartha
a reply to: Ghost147

When I was young and religious I had not doubt Jesus died to make God forgive our sins....now it doesn't make any sense at all! Let's pretend Jesus really existed (which I doubt as there is no historical evidence, besides the Bible which is not historical).

If Jesus was the son of God and part of God, then God really sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.
It makes no sense.

If Jesus was human when he 'died' then it was a human sacrifice to appease God, his father. How can anybody worship a God who gets his kicks with human sacrifice?

If Jesus did it willingly then he committed suicide, just like 'suicide by cops' in modern time. I believe suicide is a sin in the Bible. He committed a sin to save us from our sins?

Sacrifice is 'giving up something valued for the sake of others'. Jesus didn't sacrifice anything: he resurrected and sits in heaven with his father, which is exactly where he was before he came to Earth as a human. He didn't sacrifice his life (as he is not dead and gone). He didn't sacrifice his throne or place in heaven. A couple of hours of human pain is nothing compared to how some suffer for years, even children. And, like another poster said, men crucify themselves every Easter in the Philippines, nothing out of this world.

no. it makes perfect sense. firstly every person in heaven was ordered by God to be born of woman in the flesh and die. souls just don't pop into existence when a baby exits the womb or even at conception. God never uses the royal pronoun convention we see used by royalty or by pompous jerks like politicians and some professors. You just cannot find evidence of it in the bible. Yet...

God said let *US* make man in our image. does this contradict the thesis?

Not really. The bible say that sometime after creation there was an incident in heaven where Lucifer decided he wanted the Mercy seat (which God reserved for the messiah.) Lucifer seduced 1/3 of the angels into open rebellion against God. a further 1/3 of the angels didn't take sides and thus proved disloyal to God as well as the first third. Only 1/3 of the angels actively fought for God. Consequently; God had to either destroy 2/3's of his children right then (as his absolute nature would require) or find a way to absolve as many of his children as he could. Thus he decided to put his children in a flesh body in a material life where they were on trial for the fate of their soul. Adam and Eve's sin in the garden was not the original sin Though it was the first sin while humans were in flesh bodies. what it did was put God's opponent into the physical game for the first time.

In job it says the morning stars etc sang for joy at the creation of earth. if you look at biblical imagery stars are people. along with clouds, oceans and trees among no doubt other things. This is a witness to the pre-existence of our souls.

if you interpret the let us make man in our image thing as God talking to himself can we all look like God? Jesus said he looked like God. If you have seen me you have seen the father. Do we all look like Jesus. I don't think so. But Jesus does. why? What name did the angel tell Mary Jesus would be called? Emmanuel; which means God with us. If we don't look like Jesus we therefore do not look like God. But we do look like someone God was talking to when he said to make man in our image. He was talking to US in our earlier form as a spirit in heaven.

So if we are angels why do we not have wings? Because angels do not have wings in the bible. every place where God sends an angel to interact with humans in the bible they are described as youthful men of slight build (slightly androgynous) with no wings. furthermore When the Israelites were wandering in the desert and starving they were given mana (angel food) and it nourished their bodies. how likely is it that the same food will sustain both men and angels? if it was the case we aren't closely related it would be like expecting humans to go to an alien world and being able to live perfectly on alien food.

After the fall of Lucifer there was another fall of angels. and they mated with humans. this was occurring during the time of Noah prior to the flood and Jesus said this will happen again in the end times before the second coming. and they produced offspring til God put an end to it. How does that work? are we the same species?

At any rate The trinity: God sent his spirit into flesh just as he had ordered for mankind, fulfilled the law and died in the flesh just as he commanded us to do. so Jesus is God. then Jesus said that he would send a comforter to the church after his ascension into heaven. this is the holy spirit. they are all three the same extended being.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

And then Thor came with his thunderous hammer and destroyed the evil monstrous snake.
And Zeus punished the mortals with the power of lightning.
Let's not forget about Hercules who was a semigod, very much like Jesus.

They are all stories, fiction to make sense of life, the planet, the weather and the universe.

originally posted by: Agartha
a reply to: stormbringer1701

And then Thor came with his thunderous hammer and destroyed the evil monstrous snake.
And Zeus punished the mortals with the power of lightning.
Let's not forget about Hercules who was a semigod, very much like Jesus.

They are all stories, fiction to make sense of life, the planet, the weather and the universe.

this is irrationality mascarading as reason. Jesus and other biblical figures have evidence of their existence. there are accounts of the exodus recorded on Egyptian stellae. there are seals of biblical kings, there are ruins of biblical buildings and tombs. eye witness accounts of events. second hand witnesses and documentation as well.

there is no evidence of the existence of the pagan pantheons. you cannot set them on even ground.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

there are accounts of the exodus recorded on Egyptian stellae.

Uhm... excuse me?

Mind showing this evidence?

I know of ONE small inscription that says nothing but "Israel is laid waste" in all of Egypt...

So please enlighten the class...

Not really. The bible say that sometime after creation there was an incident in heaven where Lucifer decided he wanted the Mercy seat (which God reserved for the messiah.) Lucifer seduced 1/3 of the angels into open rebellion against God. a further 1/3 of the angels didn't take sides and thus proved disloyal to God as well as the first third. Only 1/3 of the angels actively fought for God. Consequently; God had to either destroy 2/3's of his children right then (as his absolute nature would require) or find a way to absolve as many of his children as he could. Thus he decided to put his children in a flesh body in a material life where they were on trial for the fate of their soul. Adam and Eve's sin in the garden was not the original sin Though it was the first sin while humans were in flesh bodies. what it did was put God's opponent into the physical game for the first time.

Funny how God never saw that coming. All knowing right? (If I make this Angel I know it's going to turn against me...ahhh I'll make it anyway.) Not logical.

After the fall of Lucifer there was another fall of angels. and they mated with humans. this was occurring during the time of Noah prior to the flood and Jesus said this will happen again in the end times before the second coming. and they produced offspring til God put an end to it. How does that work? are we the same species?

Only God grants life (at conception) I've been told. So that means God allowed these half breeds to be born? Then He killed almost everyone and everything with a flood because of something He allowed? And again, why didn't He see this coming?

Philosophy is ancient science.

Jesus as a spiritual review regarded the holiness of the Heavenly spirit and its changed spirit....a spirit that fell out, Satan.

Fall out relates to radiation.

Jesus 1000 against Satan 1000.

The Holy Ox 1000 the Hebrew review, the holiness of oxygen and water, the spirit representative of our own body.

The human body mainly consists of water, hence why this philosophy was reviewed.

The review regarded cause and effect, hence prophecy is cause and effect for it is a calculated known event.

To know an event is to keep records and these records regarded the history of life.

The records related to the PHI condition of nuclear light and sound, for the ancients were applying the levitation of stone (nuclear/radiated light sound) above natural fusion....they had changed the holiness of the atmosphere by causing it to be irradiated.

The prophecy regarded ancient natural disasters, plagues, the current timed notification of Christ stigmata...bleeding from the body unnaturally by radiation attacks, involving the light sound PHI transmitted message involving wood/air/fire/water.

They prophecized the future predictions and these predictions came true. When the evidence supported the data, the Holy War was then fought to stop the ancient practice of (anima-Satan) or occultism.

This is the history of the human sacrificed spirit, known by its physical evidence, the falling spirit in the atmosphere, the manifestation and personal human life attacks, along with inherited disease in both human and animal life, and the activation of natural disaster.

This information is about the PHI equated CHRIST review JESUS....for the WORD OF GOD is PHI calculated worded prophetic realizations as a CODE.

originally posted by: Foundryman




Funny how God never saw that coming. All knowing right? (If I make this Angel I know it's going to turn against me...ahhh I'll make it anyway.) Not logical.

God did know it was coming. He just wanted children. and Children cannot be automatons. they have to have freewill. He just knew that he could reconcile his need for imperfection in his children with his inability to abide error. That is why he set up a covenant of law that would allow grace and make way for an appropriate savior. It's his universe his rules.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

Designing the universe to require a savior implies it was also designed to suffer a preordained villain. Design flaw?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

there are accounts of the exodus recorded on Egyptian stellae.

Uhm... excuse me?

Mind showing this evidence?

I know of ONE small inscription that says nothing but "Israel is laid waste" in all of Egypt...

So please enlighten the class...

perhaps i will look it up later. these obscure archaeology articles are often found by accident and hard to relocate deliberately.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

there are accounts of the exodus recorded on Egyptian stellae.

Uhm... excuse me?

Mind showing this evidence?

I know of ONE small inscription that says nothing but "Israel is laid waste" in all of Egypt...

So please enlighten the class...

perhaps i will look it up later. these obscure archaeology articles are often found by accident and hard to relocate deliberately.

Thats because there isn't a shred of evidence that the biblical exodus ever happened...

They've found a grand total of two inscriptions in all of egypt... One is the plaque i mentioned and the other was found in a pile of rubble... Which only says "israel"...

Im not a bibical archeologist but i keep up on new findings in the field...

Theres nothing...

Don't make bold statements unless you can back them up... ATS members will probably call you on them

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: stormbringer1701

Designing the universe to require a savior implies it was also designed to suffer a preordained villain. Design flaw?

No. I would just say that a being that knows everything foresees everything. He wanted children that could love him and that required the ability to choose no to. So from the very foundation of the universe he knew what would happen and he had a plan to solve the conflict his creation would generate.

As much as our pride might be offended, because we are his creatures he has every right to do with us as he judges. He made all souls and proclaims "All souls belongeth to me. The soul that sins; it shall die." Our souls are not our own. that hurts but it is true. We cannot sell our souls nor can we give them to false gods. The fate of our souls does not depend on our belief that it is so either. God needs no permission.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
this is irrationality mascarading as reason. Jesus and other biblical figures have evidence of their existence...

there is no evidence of the existence of the pagan pantheons. you cannot set them on even ground.

Are you saying there is no Mount Olympus?

Jesus schmeesus, no evidence...

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

there are accounts of the exodus recorded on Egyptian stellae.

Uhm... excuse me?

Mind showing this evidence?

I know of ONE small inscription that says nothing but "Israel is laid waste" in all of Egypt...

So please enlighten the class...

perhaps i will look it up later. these obscure archaeology articles are often found by accident and hard to relocate deliberately.

Thats because there isn't a shred of evidence that the biblical exodus ever happened...

They've found a grand total of two inscriptions in all of egypt... One is the plaque i mentioned and the other was found in a pile of rubble... Which only says "israel"...

Im not a bibical archeologist but i keep up on new findings in the field...

Theres nothing...

Don't make bold statements unless you can back them up... ATS members will probably call you on them

you are wrong on this. i remember the article fairly well. i just don't have the energy to look for it right now given i know how these hunts for old articles can go due to the nature of search engines.

originally posted by: aorAki

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
this is irrationality mascarading as reason. Jesus and other biblical figures have evidence of their existence...

there is no evidence of the existence of the pagan pantheons. you cannot set them on even ground.

Are you saying there is no Mount Olympus?

Jesus schmeesus, no evidence...

no. and mt olympus is irrelevant.