How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Ghost147: What I'm asking is, where are you getting this information from?

vhb: Esoteric knowledge?

Ghost147: How incredibly discrediting to your position. You might as well just make up whatever you want and offer that as absolute fact. At least with Christians they can show where their concepts come from (the bible).

Everyone has a truth they incarnated with; (assuming reincarnation is the driving force) to progress your individualized soul growth (you have not been jumpstarted upon that path). My truth differs from yours is all; and may have a another agenda. I do not know what organized religions sneaky agendas are (up to) as am not in that belief or a participant.

Again, your content is entirely speculative and without any proof.

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Ghost147: What I'm asking is, where are you getting this information from?

vhb: Esoteric knowledge?

Ghost147: How incredibly discrediting to your position. You might as well just make up whatever you want and offer that as absolute fact. At least with Christians they can show where their concepts come from (the bible).

Everyone has a truth they incarnated with; (assuming reincarnation is the driving force) to progress your individualized soul growth (you have not been jumpstarted upon that path). My truth differs from yours is all; and may have a another agenda. I do not know what organized religions sneaky agendas are (up to) as am not in that belief or a participant.

Again, your content is entirely speculative and without any proof.

Its your thread and ultimate 'judgment' call as to what is a truth (mine) you disagree with. Problem is you have not provided any real argument against "esoteric" knowledge.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Sorry for the long delay of response...I actually started posting a reply the other night when I saw your response. But I was using my so called "smart phone " and I guess I wasn't smart enough to use it correctly. I touched the screen in the wrong way and my response disappeared into cyber space. I didn't feel like trying again at the time so anyway it had to wait until now.

As far as my statement about God establishing the parameters of our current existence...I will agree that it is a faith based statement and I see no way that it could be otherwise...unless I happened to be present when the parameters were established.

In all fairness many of the things being stated in this thread are faith based. But as the bible says " Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen " and since I was not there to see it ( And I highly doubt that you were either). We have to base our beliefs surrounding this event in faith.

I will say though that the bible does address this very issue in a very direct manner. It is found in the book of Job chapter 38 : 1-6. Here it is... Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said , 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare , if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest ? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof ?

I personally feel very confident that these verses are referring to the parameters of our current physical existence in ALL aspects.

Now regarding your other comment about whether Jesus sacrifice paid for the sins of mankind before his death and/or after as well. Let me just say for now that I think the hang up on this issue stems from our natural inclination to see humanities transgressions in a cumulative fashion rather than as a singular problem. Sin is a singular problem being played out in a myriad of facets. Christ took care of the problem on that singular level.

Now in a subsequent post you mention how " Christ Consciousness" failed to unite the world. I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was supposed to unite the world ? Matt 10 :34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

I do not want to appear as though I am bent on opposing your ideas. I do agree with some of what you are saying and I find some of your ideas quite interesting.

a reply to: Ghost147

First of all thank you for your affirmative response....it actually came as a bit of a surprise ( although a pleasant one ). I was in the process of responding to your concern as well as Vet's when my work got sent to an unknown location in cyberspace.

Anyway I will attempt to share with you my own way of seeing this matter that concerns you. Although I do believe that God is omniscient...I also believe that he still likes surprises. At least surprises that occur within a defined set of values or boundaries. The bible verse that comes to mind when thinking of this issue is this one... Matt 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

In my mind this verse depicts a scenario in which God expects results in ways and places that he did not necessarily define ...as it were. Sort of like dumping a bunch of colored marbles into a box. You know that all of the marbles will be in the box...but you don't necessarily know what patterns will be formed. It is probably not a very good example ...but I think it gives the gist of it.

originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: vethumanbeing

HarryJoy: As far as my statement about God establishing the parameters of our current existence...I will agree that it is a faith based statement and I see no way that it could be otherwise...unless I happened to be present when the parameters were established.

Faith based ideology; perhaps a springboard to true enlightenment if you reject everything you have been indoctrinated with. This is your life (involving your progressive spiritual travels).

HarryJoy: I will say though that the bible does address this very issue in a very direct manner. It is found in the book of Job chapter 38 : 1-6. Here it is... Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said , 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare , if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest ? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof ?

Do you not think for yourself and have to have a diatribe to convince you of something you already know?

HarryJoy: Now in a subsequent post you mention how " Christ Consciousness" failed to unite the world. I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was supposed to unite the world ? Matt 10 :34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

It failed is all; the idea was that the "kingdom of earth" is not here, but in the heavens; meaning not of the 3d dimension but existing in the higher lighter dimensions.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Ghost147: What I'm asking is, where are you getting this information from?

vhb: Esoteric knowledge?

Ghost147: How incredibly discrediting to your position. You might as well just make up whatever you want and offer that as absolute fact. At least with Christians they can show where their concepts come from (the bible).

Everyone has a truth they incarnated with; (assuming reincarnation is the driving force) to progress your individualized soul growth (you have not been jumpstarted upon that path). My truth differs from yours is all; and may have a another agenda. I do not know what organized religions sneaky agendas are (up to) as am not in that belief or a participant.

Again, your content is entirely speculative and without any proof.

Its your thread and ultimate 'judgment' call as to what is a truth (mine) you disagree with. Problem is you have not provided any real argument against "esoteric" knowledge.

Because there is no disproving something that is unfalsifiable. I could claim that the Human soul is made up of little tiny unicorns that flutter around and poop cherry blossoms, and when a Human dies the little tiny unicorns flutter off into another dimension that exists outside of time and space where they all mate to form slugs, and on top of the slugs is a shell that is ever expanding, and that shell consists of dark matter which forms another universe where the process repeats itself. But, the unicorns are undetectable by anything man-made, and there's no way we can know they exist unless we die.

Yet, that claim has just as much evidence going for it as yours. Why? Because you can't prove me wrong. Which is why making claims that are unfalsifiable is dishonest and answers nothing.

a reply to: HarryJoy

I understand what you're trying to get out now, but would that not be outside the realm of omniscience entirely? Sure, he knew what was in the box and that nothing else could come out of it but what was already inside of it, but that form knowledge isn't omniscience.

originally posted by: HarryJoy
the omnipotence of God let me just say that the omnipotence of God was displayed in the establishing of the boundaries and parameters of our current existence

Assuming he exists first... and that he set such boundaries. This doesn't necessarily require omnipotence.

originally posted by: HarryJoyAlthough he does allow randomness to exist to its maximum extent within the current parameters he showed his omnipotence in establishing the limits and boundaries of those parameters thereby limiting and preventing our ability to destroy on a universal level but he does want to maximize the amount of energy and diversity of that energy within the current set of parameters.

You seem to know a lot about god.

Randomness is entirely contradictory to notions of an omnipotent (not to mention omniscient) god. There can (in reality) be no randomness. There is no logical way to reconcile such notions with anthropomorphised gods, such as in the bible. That's why people try to redefine the definition, claiming a specialised non omnipotent form of omnipotence for their god. So they can maintain belief. It's a fairy story.

Other philosophies (far more refined than the middle eastern peasants who were considered quite backwards and ignorant even in their day) allow for such properties as "absolute", "unfathomable", "unalterable" and "eternal" etc. Though they don't claim an anthropomorphic Santa Claus figure in the sky that has an obsession with one recent species floating around on a spec of cosmic dust.

Can an "omni-anything" be subject to change? For instance, how could the state of omniscience (complete knowledge) ever change? You can't be more knowledgeable, you certainly can't be less knowledgeable. Same with omnipotence. Yet the biblical god is nothing if not whimsically changeable with a professed wisdom about equal with primitive tribal leaders of the era.

originally posted by: HarryJoyFor God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

Yet he knew it would happen exactly this way for all of eternity (he is also omniscient remember?), but being omnipotent he also obviously approved/chose this particular human sacrifice, to appease himself. Therefore there was no choice for Jesus regardless, even if you overlook that the claimed necessity for such a "scapegoat" are ridiculous. It was already known how it would end up a priori, planned with absolute precision and certainty, by an omnipotent and omniscient god.

There also seems to be some "each way" betting in this thread where jesus either is/isn't god, depending whether it supports the argument (it's more likely the biblical version of jesus is an ahistorical myth).

originally posted by: HarryJoyit is the energy signature created by the crucifixion both from the God end and the Son end that creates the buffer( on energy particle level ) for evil to be absorbed and dissipated.

Sounds like bs. Can you explain it that and back it up in any reasonable, logical way?

a reply to: HarryJoy

Apologies for interjecting here, and I hope Vethumanbeing doesn’t mind either…but I just felt the need to respond to your reply/post…

Originally posted by HarryJoy
As far as my statement about God establishing the parameters of our current existence...I will agree that it is a faith based statement and I see no way that it could be otherwise...unless I happened to be present when the parameters were established.

But you were present!!!, at least a part of you was; in theory anyway.

According to the Big Bang hypothesis, the universe expanded from a single point, producing everything we see and know today…so a part of you must have been there in the beginning, in one/some form or another.

Or another way to look at it in Gnostic/Esoteric terminology, is that “you’re a part of the Living God/Father”…

Originally posted by HarryJoy
In all fairness many of the things being stated in this thread are faith based. But as the bible says " Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen " and since I was not there to see it ( And I highly doubt that you were either). We have to base our beliefs surrounding this event in faith.

" Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen "


Hmmmm… tricky…


But evidence by it’s very nature, requires that it must be seen and known. The scientific method uses empirical evidence, taken from observation (seen) and experiments, to help find/know the truth…

So how can we have “evidence of things not seen”…??? Isn’t that an oxymoron…?

Originally posted by HarryJoy
I will say though that the bible does address this very issue in a very direct manner. It is found in the book of Job chapter 38 : 1-6. Here it is... Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said , 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare , if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest ? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof ?

Interesting; That line “…if thou has understanding…”, seems to suggests (hint at the possibility) that he should KNOW the answer to the question…somehow…

It’s very reminiscent of Proverbs 8, verses 22 to 36…IMO…


- JC

originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: Ghost147

First of all thank you for your affirmative response....it actually came as a bit of a surprise ( although a pleasant one ). I was in the process of responding to your concern as well as Vet's when my work got sent to an unknown location in cyberspace.

Anyway I will attempt to share with you my own way of seeing this matter that concerns you. Although I do believe that God is omniscient...I also believe that he still likes surprises. At least surprises that occur within a defined set of values or boundaries. The bible verse that comes to mind when thinking of this issue is this one... Matt 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

In my mind this verse depicts a scenario in which God expects results in ways and places that he did not necessarily define ...as it were. Sort of like dumping a bunch of colored marbles into a box. You know that all of the marbles will be in the box...but you don't necessarily know what patterns will be formed. It is probably not a very good example ...but I think it gives the gist of it.

In my mind this is a maneuver to reinforce the plausibility of an idea that has only its plausibility to fall back on. There is nothing in the definitions of omnipotence or omniscience about being selective. Either you are or you aren't.

originally posted by: Ghost147
originally posted by: [post=19985517]vethumanbeing

Ghost147: Because there is no disproving something that is unfalsifiable. I could claim that the Human soul is made up of little tiny unicorns that flutter around and poop cherry blossoms, and when a Human dies the little tiny unicorns flutter off into another dimension that exists outside of time and space where they all mate to form slugs, and on top of the slugs is a shell that is ever expanding, and that shell consists of dark matter which forms another universe where the process repeats itself. But, the unicorns are undetectable by anything man-made, and there's no way we can know they exist unless we die.

As this statement is YOUR TRUTH; and one specifically individualized to your sensibilities (doesn't have to match or agree with anyone else's); defend it with honor against all prevaricators.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

First of all Vet...If faith based ideology can be a springboard to true enlightenment. One must have a framework in which to base there faith. What are you saying..... Give up my current framework and adopt yours ?? Why should I ?? Give me something superior....I have not seen a clear framework presented by anyone on here...only the tearing down of frameworks that they don't like.

Secondly....I do think for myself.

Thirdly.... I don't see how a "kingdom of Earth" can be any where other than Earth and still be a kingdom of "Earth"...that does not make sense to me.

Lastly....I really don't see how ANY other belief system could tangibly change how I currently live my life. The two principles that I hold to are " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you " and " Show mercy and you shall receive mercy ". Imo these principles are based in what I consider "energy logic". I really don't see how that can change in the current dimension. Do you ??

a reply to: TzarChasm

The very thought that our finite minds could wrap themselves around the idea of omnipotence..is implausible. For example....if God is omnipotent can he create a rock that is so big that he cannot move it ??? This very statement causes us to have to come to one of two conclusions. A : There is no such thing as an omnipotent entity...or B : Our finite minds are not able to conceive or define what omnipotence would really look like.

Which answer do you believe ?? I lean toward answer B....which allows me some leeway to make it fit with my observations of our current existence.

If you want to hold to the strict interpretation...omnipotence exists as a word only.

a reply to: Joecroft

I do not disagree with you on the point of being a part of God. But either the part that I was at the time of "creation" wasn't able to perceive what was taking place....or the memory of those events have been taken away from my current consciousness. Either way it causes me ( And presumably everyone else ) to have to use faith to believe in how it came to be.

Maybe you could share your definition of "faith" ?

originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: vethumanbeing

HarryJoy: First of all Vet...If faith based ideology can be a springboard to true enlightenment. One must have a framework in which to base there faith. What are you saying..... Give up my current framework and adopt yours ?? Why should I ?? Give me something superior....I have not seen a clear framework presented by anyone on here...only the tearing down of frameworks that they don't like.

Anything that brings enlightenment to the 'individualized' god particle that is the human as its best description/expression is fine. I don't have a framework and am not in the business of saving souls or telling others what their shortest path to enlightenment is. How would I know? It's a personal journey between you and your perceived creator.

HarryJoy: Thirdly.... I don't see how a "kingdom of Earth" can be any where other than Earth and still be a kingdom of "Earth"...that does not make sense to me.

Earth is physical; I was speaking of the 'kingdom of heaven' where spirits dwell (or hopefully wind up, buy condos on the beach, pursue businesses..).

HarryJoy: Lastly....I really don't see how ANY other belief system could tangibly change how I currently live my life. The two principles that I hold to are " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you " and " Show mercy and you shall receive mercy ". Imo these principles are based in what I consider "energy logic". I really don't see how that can change in the current dimension. Do you ??

Why cannot all belief systems be somewhat correct in their version of a truth; why chose only one (nit-pick the others as you are bound to if attached so firmly to one). Energy logic; if I understand you is the generation of 'love' or positive energy being given out into this dimension. Hate energy works (proven through historical records) as has through power corruption and lies controlled this paradigm for 2000 years why not love instead. Because no one understands (as an energy form) has a very high frequency that cannot be consumed by those manipulating Earth; they prefer the lower hate frequency. Broccoli vs Ice Cream.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Hi Vet,
First of all I would like to apologize to you and anyone else that I have responded to in a way that seemed defensive ( multiple ??? ). My own beliefs are in flux ( other than the two principles mentioned ) and I have a lot going on in my head as well as in my exterior life right now. So it creates a fair amount of tension in me.

I think we are probably much closer in our beliefs/ideologies then it would appear on "paper". I do believe that all belief systems are valid and it probably hinges on what lessons a soul came here to learn as to what belief system ( or lack thereof ) they were born into or adopted.

originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Hi Vet,
First of all I would like to apologize to you and anyone else that I have responded to in a way that seemed defensive ( multiple ??? ). My own beliefs are in flux ( other than the two principles mentioned ) and I have a lot going on in my head as well as in my exterior life right now. So it creates a fair amount of tension in me.
I think we are probably much closer in our beliefs/ideologies then it would appear on "paper". I do believe that all belief systems are valid and it probably hinges on what lessons a soul came here to learn as to what belief system ( or lack thereof ) they were born into or adopted.

Not taken in any way but trying to validate a known (you own and are seeking validation). You question the same as I do. Great forum provided to do so. "All belief systems are valid and it probably hinges on what lessons a soul came here to learn as to what belief system (or lack thereof) they were born into or adopted". You may have been born into a completely different system (prior life times) and are now experiencing another; for what purpose? balance. Thanks for the reply.

a reply to: HarryJoy

Originally posted by HarryJoy
I do not disagree with you on the point of being a part of God.

Glad to hear it. It’s always difficult to argue against pure logic and reason.

Originally posted by HarryJoy
…But either the part that I was at the time of "creation" wasn't able to perceive what was taking place....or the memory of those events have been taken away from my current consciousness.

Or better yet; perhaps your memory has been temporarily taken away (access denied) in order for you to enjoy this particular life experience…

Originally posted by HarryJoy
…Either way it causes me ( And presumably everyone else ) to have to use faith to believe in how it came to be.

“…it causes me to have to use faith…” lol

That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in ages…


2 questions…

(1) Couldn’t you just as easily use “faith” to believe that” how it came to be”, was without a God/Creator of any kind…?

And…

(2) If you use “faith” to believe in a God/Creator or anything for that matter, then how can you ever know that it’s true…?

And if your answer to question 2 is that you can’t know it’s true, then in relation to question 1… what should you be putting your “faith” in…? i.e. which way around and why…?

Originally posted by HarryJoy
Maybe you could share your definition of "faith" ?

My definition!!!…I tend to stick with the known definitions, as they are outlined in various dictionaries…rather than creating my own lol

I think the phrase bellow sums up the word “faith” rather nicely…

“A firm belief in (x) without logical proof”

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft
(I couldn't as me responded in any better a fashion) as you. Nice response as resonated a truth.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
(I couldn't as me responded in any better a fashion) as you. Nice response as resonated a truth.

Thanks…

I’m pretty sure you could have wordsmithed a response, way better than I could…

I starred you third last post…nice thoughts…

Strange how the facts are there, (sometimes hidden) in bits/parts, but have been distorted over time…Mark Twain Weck lol was right…and so was Dorothy Parker…

“You can’t teach an old dogma new tricks”… lol

- JC