Canada jumping off F35,s?

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

There are a few companies that can be moved, such as circuit boards, and possibly bulkheads, but they do outer wing sections, power supplies, and LOHAS through companies up there as well. Those can't be shifted without it hurting badly.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I was thinking in the contract that got them the manufacturing jobs would be a clause penalizing them monetarily for canceling orders, as they are getting the benefit without following through with the purchase.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Zaphod58

I was thinking in the contract that got them the manufacturing jobs would be a clause penalizing them monetarily for canceling orders, as they are getting the benefit without following through with the purchase.

On a Typhoon we took the DASS out of Germany because they didn't want it, they lost the work share. Then they decided to get the DASS and we had to get a line up and running in Germany.

At some point Germany wanted out fully but the penalties prevented them.

I'm suprised they got the work without signing up for sales with a contract which did heavily penalise them, crap contracting if not, not on my watch!!!

a reply to: Forensick

Exactly that is usually pretty standard when a country is getting a benefit.

So I read and Canada can pull out, but it makes them 100% ineligible for any future work. So all the work being done there will stop. The estimate is $10.6 billion over the life of the program. So about $250-$400 million a year.

They hope to find another plane and get that money anyways from building the other plane.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

No, current work will continue regardless. What they lose is the ability to add work as production ramps up. What they have now will continue until the contracts end.

Short term this doesn't hurt. Long term this hurts them a lot. They could be producing parts for the next ten years though, depending on the parts and the contract.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
Short term this doesn't hurt. Long term this hurts them a lot. They could be producing parts for the next ten years though, depending on the parts and the contract.

When did 2.3% become a lot?

Whether Canada cancels or not, the F-35's affect on the Canadian aerospace industry has been, and will continue to be negligible. Heck, if we factor in how much of the current contract profits go right back to the US (lots of the 'Canadian' companies are Canadian divisions of US companies), the amount that the F-35 adds to our aero industry drops below 1%.

F-35 contracts signed to date: $637 million USD
Aerospace Industry: $27.7 billion USD

Lockheed's claim of $10.5 billion USD (for Companies in Canada over 40 years) is extremely optimistic, and has zero basis in our actual contract history. In the past 5 years we have garnered $637 million, we aren't going to get to $10.5 billion in another 35.

Any argument for or against the F-35, based on "industry value", is just talking points meant to sway perception based on emotions.

a reply to: peck420

And you don't think losing "even" $637M in business, when the industry is already hurting, isn't going to hurt bad?

While it might not have gotten to $10B, it would have gone a lot higher than it is now. That's based on current production rates. Right now, between built and currently being built, you're talking under 300 aircraft. One it goes to full rate production you're going to be looking at almost 250 aircraft a year.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
And you don't think losing "even" $637M in business, when the industry is already hurting, isn't going to hurt bad?

Not when the every industry (including aerospace) will have to suffer for it. I guess you didn't think about what the debt created by purchasing these aircraft will do to our ENTIRE economy. How about what it will do to our military? Nothing like tying up most of your entire procurement budget for a decade on one purchase.

While it might not have gotten to $10B, it would have gone a lot higher than it is now. That's based on current production rates. Right now, between built and currently being built, you're talking under 300 aircraft. One it goes to full rate production you're going to be looking at almost 250 aircraft a year.

If Canada's contribution is so competitive that it is going to guarantee new contracts, those contracts are going to happen regardless of Canada's F-35 purchase.

If Canada's contribution is not so competitive then all we were ever going to get was a token value based on our purchases.

If Canada wants to improve her floundering aerospace industry, artificially propping it up is not the way to do it.

a reply to: peck420

With the current state of the Canadian forces ANY procurement program is going to eat a big chunk of the budget.

As of now there's essentially no Aerospace industry in Canada. Many companies there are satellite companies or only build parts as suppliers to manufacturing companies.

Bombardier has the CSeries, which has not been nearly as successful as they hoped it would be. But they're really about the only Canadian manufacturer left. AugustaWestland is an Italian company, Bell Textron is American, etc.

They needed this business, not just because of the money, but so that the people tatty do the work keep in practice and when they do have a program going on they aren't starting totally from scratch.

The contracts are happening with or without Canadian participation, only now there can't be Canadian participation beyond what's already contracted.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
With the current state of the Canadian forces ANY procurement program is going to eat a big chunk of the budget.

All the more reason to address needs over wants. F-35's are wants. Resupply ships are needs.

As of now there's essentially no Aerospace industry in Canada. Many companies there are satellite companies or only build parts as suppliers to manufacturing companies.

All the more reason to not care about that $637 million. Won't be staying in Canada anyways. Thank you for confirming it.

Bombardier has the CSeries, which has not been nearly as successful as they hoped it would be. But they're really about the only Canadian manufacturer left. AugustaWestland is an Italian company, Bell Textron is American, etc.

Again, thank you for confirming that very little of what 'Canada' gets from these contracts actually benefits Canada.

They needed this business, not just because of the money, but so that the people tatty do the work keep in practice and when they do have a program going on they aren't starting totally from scratch.

I'm sure the remaining $27 billion of industry can accommodate them. And, if they can't than the industry can get better or find other things to do.

The contracts are happening with or without Canadian participation, only now there can't be Canadian participation beyond what's already contracted.

And...not seeing an issue with this.

a reply to: peck420

You didn't bother to read that very well did you. I said the CANADIAN companies are suppliers and build parts. Which is exactly what we're talking about here.

www.f35.com...

Those are Canadian companies involved. They're all Canadian owned so every bit of that money would stay in Canada.

Resupply ships for what? There's essentially nothing in the Pacific that can deploy far enough to need resupply.And with the land area that Canada has aircraft are more important than ships. You need aircraft to patrol airspace. Ships aren't going to do that.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

No, current work will continue regardless. What they lose is the ability to add work as production ramps up. What they have now will continue until the contracts end.

Short term this doesn't hurt. Long term this hurts them a lot. They could be producing parts for the next ten years though, depending on the parts and the contract.

Yes that is what I meant. When the current contract ends they are 100% ineligible to get more work.

Decreased production rate of the F-35 will increase the unit cost of the F-35. For my country, Australia, this will increase the cost of the program by around 150 million Australian dollars.

Thanks Canada!

Hopefully, if they indeed ditch the F-35, other countries will take up the expected production slots (i.e. Japan) with contracts for manufacturing redistributed to other countries, effective as soon as possible.

I hope Canada is happy with 4th generation Super Slow Hornets for the next several decades, because that's likely what they're getting.

All because of politics.

a reply to: C0bzz

Leaning on neighbours ... much ?

Just wondering C0bzz, does Oz .get the SEA maintenance contract ?

a reply to: Timely

Australia and Japan get Asia while Italy and the UK get Europe.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Thanks for the timely reply Zap ...

What about this?
www.difesaonline.it...
The miracle helmet is too heavy now?

a reply to: cavtrooper7

No it's not. The problem they found happens with the ACES II and Mk 14 seat used by the Navy too. The weight of the helmet plays a role because it changes the CG of the seat during ejection of lighter pilots. So far it's affected one pilot.