The Rapture: Fact Or Fiction?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: namelesss
Hilarious story, but it, too - is fiction.

I never claimed otherwise! *__-
Glad you liked it, and caught the parallel fictitiousness! *__-

originally posted by: Transparent
There are different doctrinal views taught about the the Rapture among the many denominations of Christendom. The most popular teaching is that Christ will call all Christians to be caught away with him in the air and taken to heaven. At the same time believers who have died will be raised from the dead to heaven as well. In the twinkling of the eye both groups when the Rapture takes place will receive immortal bodies and will reign with Christ.

The Rapture doctrine teaches that no believers will go through the Tribulation, only non-believers will. All those who have rejected Christ will be left behind upon the earth and God will execute judgement upon them. Many have also been taught that this event will lead to the Great Tribulation.

According to this event:
1. What is the doctrinal definition of the Rapture?
2. Who goes to heaven according to this doctrine?
3. Who are those left on earth & what happens to them?
4. Who do those raptured to heaven with Christ rule over?
5. How according to doctrine is the Rapture related to the Tribulation?

What are the facts?

There are no 'facts'...it's fiction, pure & simple...

Seriously, grow up (not directed at OP)

Å99

a reply to Isurrender73

You are missing one important concept found in Revelation and all other scriptures. The 1000 year reign of Christ.

Ok... but why isn't Jesus telling us about this? And does something written by some murky figure (John of Patmos I think wrote Revelation, but I could be wrong) some 60+ years after Jesus override what Jesus has to say? Isn't Jesus the ultimate authority on the issue?

a reply to: TarzanBeta

It is not the Bible that confuses us about what it says. It is the opinions of others that confuse us about what it says.

I agree 100%.

Someone else said that the Rapture took place 2000 years ago...

I think that would be me.

First of all, that generation of which He speaks is not the 20 or 40 year generation. It is the generation of the age of Christ.

What scripture did you get that from? You can't just make up stuff because it doesn't fit your narrative. Jesus clearly knew the difference between "age" and "generation." As follows:
Matthew 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age.
Mark 10:30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

As so on, I could quote many. So he said "age" when he meant age, and he said "generation" when he meant generation. I don't think God needed to people to come behind him 2000 years later and tell him what he really meant or interpret for Him.

It's entirely possible for 2 days to equal 2 thousand years. That's well within the bounds of a normal generation, is it not?

No, that is NOT possible and no, that is NOT within the bounds of a generation. It is within the bounds of an age, but if that was what Jesus meant he would've said so.

well, recall that Jesus reprimanded one other disciple concerning John by saying, "What is it to you if I have him tarry until I come?"

This proves my point more than yours. Actually thanks, that's a good one for my point that I hadn't noticed.

That means it is entirely within reason that Jesus was also relating that it is possible that some may indeed wait and not die until He comes back.

Uh, what? Who are these people who live for 2000 years, Highlanders? Jesus said, "There be some standing here..." referring to the audience he was speaking to right then and there. Not Moses, the prophets, Muhammed, etc.

If you don't like the death motif, how about this one: "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23)

Come on, he says it over and over again throughout the gospels. It would seem so that there could be no mistake or misrepresentation.

For all the signs which Jesus said would come before that time and before the generation ends have not happened. Jesus did not come back in His cloud of angels and He has not sent His angels to reap the harvest of souls. It simply has not happened yet.

Or either everyone missed it. Matthew 17:11-12 says: Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."

So, apparently even back in His time, sometimes everyone just misses important stuff. Did you know that Elijah returning is a prerequisite for Jesus' return? So Jesus is saying that Elijah came and went and nobody even noticed.

But I agree, this issue is a BIG problem which could have some bad implications. I regret to say that I don't have an answer for you on that problem.

a reply to: Elcabong

Ages and generations may overlap and they obviously do. Time is time. The age is the passage of time for the world and generation refers to the time period from which a person was generated. Since the age has clearly not ended (you might want to write this down since it doesn't seem evident to you: We're still here), then therefore it is quite obvious to conclude that He has people who are still around from that generation. But you're not going to get it, because you don't want to. How do I know?

Because you want to use the verse wherein it is stated that Jesus said to His other disciples, "What is it to you if I have him tarry until I come" - speaking of John - you want to use that for your argument, but you failed to include the rest of what I elaborated on, and also you purposefully avoid the truth written directly in the Bible... of course.

John 21:21-24

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

Now there is the verse straight from the Lord's mouth. I'm sorry. You're not going to believe John from Revelation, but you'll believe John of the Gospel.

The point of Peter saying that a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day is to reveal how people fail to realize that God does not age. He is outside time. He sees things very differently. We are able to imagine that perspective somewhat though our reality seems a persistent illusion, as has been said before... Consider: God has to hear millions of people pray every night and day and in every distress and calamity and every birth and every accident and every punishment and even in every thanks and every acknowledgement while overseeing all things as well and sustaining the cosmos notwithstanding...!; and He may potentially respond to those prayers and events as well. HOW?! Because He is outside time. He can hear at His own pace. He can respond at His own pace. He can rewind and fast forward. He is all powerful. He decides the generations. He decides the ages. The Creator of time does that - not man.

If He resurrected Jesus, what big thing is it if He keeps a man alive to tarry?

If He creates the universe and responds to all its host, what big thing is it if He keeps a man alive?

He is self sustaining and is HIMSELF alive always! It's His being!

And on your point, sure, He was talking to the audience. Therefore, it was somebody in the audience.

As well, Israel is not the country in the middle east anymore. It hasn't been for... 2000 years.

Read.

Romans 9:6-11

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

If you are able to read, then you will that Israel is according to the promise and not according to the flesh. Israel is the children of God. The children of God are, of course, all humanity, but in this case, Christians who have willingly received the promise - and God wants all humanity to be saved. If the Resurrection of the dead already happened, then we are all already certainly doomed and this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

You don't read, neither do you divide properly.

You are going to die, unless your faith is in Christ and Jesus comes first. But since you don't believe in His coming... therein you have a problem. Not that you're not saved, but that your faith is highly irrational and how can it lead others to a good faith?

They didn't recognize John the Baptist indeed. But John the Baptist didn't come with tens of thousands of his saints from the sky. And Jesus departed into the sky and then the angels told His disciples, "Why do you stand staring up in awe? For Jesus will come back in the same manner as He left."

He will be seen. It is necessary.

I do not know how you can possibly believe in Jesus but have the irrational idea that He has already come and yet within His Reign there is death and destruction. Your mind is perverted because of mixing doctrines instead of just reading the Bible.

I don't blame you, I've been there. But I think I should point it out anyway.

a reply to: Transparent

The Rapture is a man-made doctrine, [Mat 15:9 "But in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." Isa. 29:13] - because 'whoever does not take up their cross to follow him, is not [deemed] worthy of' him, in other words, not worthy of his sin-cleansing sacrifice. Compare Revelation 7:14.

In Matthew 24:9, he says 'they will hand you over to Tribulation and kill you... over / because of my name'. The Tribulation, which will last for exactly three and a half years / 42 months / 180 weeks / 1,260 days*, is your opportunity to take up your own execution-stake and to take the same path he did - as Daniel says, it is to be 'purged, refined and made white'.

For motivation, if you save your [physical] life, you will lose your [eternal] life, and vice versa.

He doesn't have to say who 'they' are because anyone refusing to bend knee and worship Jesus Christ (who will be alive and present at that time) will be killed by those who do. Only one generation, known as the Fig Tree / Israel, will have the opportunity to face off against the flesh & blood Antichrist.

They will be killed because the name God gave His Son is not Jesus... but Yeshua - and you can check this out and also all the Biblical references as to the importance of his name, for yourself! Jesus stands in place of the true Messiah as the Antichrist, and Yeshua is the Messiah. '

The Bible clearly says 'Immediately after the Tribulation...he will gather his elect' and this second part has been taken by some, to mean the 'Rapture'. There is also 1 Corinthians 15:50 & 51 which is stipulated as happening at the last Trumpet, which echoes Isaiah 27:12 & 13, where it is the 'children of Israel' who will be raised up one by one at that great trumpet!

Those who are left behind then, are those who stayed at home during the great feast of the birds at Armageddon, (compare Matthew 24: 28 with Revelation 19:17) who will face the wrath of God; via violent earthquakes, red-hot pumice hail, lightnings, thunderings and volcanoes - and lose their lives anyway.

The 144,000 are described as 'first-fruits, male virgins, and being without guile' - 'being without guile' would make them very young babes-in-arms. In 1 Corinthians 15:23, the order of resurrection is first, the Messiah, then the first-fruits, and afterwards, those who are his at his coming; which is after the Tribulation.

After the thousand years, during which time Satan has been bound up in the bottomless abyss, he will be released to go out and deceive the nations, which surround the camp of the Elect / Saints and the beloved City / the new Jerusalem. Revelation 20-9. So Yeshua with the Saints will rule over these nations for the thousand years. Compare Revelation 20:4-6

The rest of mankind, who have not faced off against the Antichrist, will be resurrected at the White Throne Judgment and judged according to their works!

* Compare Daniel 12:7 with Revelation 13:5 & 7.

Sorry that this is not doctrine, but these are the Biblical facts.

a reply to: Maigret

Biblical facts are hard to come by when you dance outside of the gospels

a reply to: Klassified

Well I doubt we will see any evidence either way, just opinion and conjecture

a reply to: Transparent

There are no facts. It's all prophecy so it hasn't happened.

a reply to: Akragon

*lol* Not when you're taught by God.

a reply to: Maigret

Really?

I don't know how Christians can still amaze me with their answers...