The Right To Bear Arms Is A Volatile Issue We Face Daily...

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
a reply to: Wolfenz
What is being counted upon is this; as the older generations die off (by natural attrition) and the newer generations bifurcate; have the potential to be 'indoctrinated' (not having a clue as to what took place in the past) or warped/manipulated into thinking or understanding the idea of Socialism/Communism 101 can be a positive.

So you want to instead indoctrinate them into believing socialism and communism are inherently evil?

Current societies have access to the combined knowledge of all of human history at their fingertips. I think people are perfectly capable of coming to their own conclusions without the previous generations indoctrinating them into what they believe to be right.

Historically socialism/communism is a failed system because it is ripe for corruption (the very few in power control the masses). That power which within itself lays a foundation (acquiescent) eyes wide open to such potential evils as has ever been. People that come to a sane conclusion generally immigrate to free countries/not to Cuba, North Korea, Libya, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China or the militia run states in Africa.

a reply to: Aazadan

Oh look at that, you agree that people break the law.

And yet still want to legislate those who don't break the law? And take away their ability to break the law because other people have done it?

Sorry, you're no longer discussing anything that can be supported by actual data. You contend that people carry concealed in to bars and drink while carrying. Okay...how many people do that? How many of them are legal gun owners to begin with? How many have concealed carry permits? How many of them pull their gun and shoot somebody? Where's your data that carrying a gun still allows an attacker to "get the first shot off?" Can you provide anything to support that other than an opinion?

Arguing from the fantasy realm of "if we make all the gunz disappear crime will stop" is just plain ignorant. You're right, it would. And if we could alter DNA of embryos we could prevent murder from ever taking place. So what? What's your point? We won't be eliminating all the guns, so wish we could is a waste of damn time.

originally posted by: Aazadan
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

vhb: How who acts? Literally obsessive according to you; as you describe in the above they actually fondle (clean) and have sex with their guns as an ALSO plus this twist: WORSHIP them. You would defend your unpopular wife to your friends before you would your favorite firearm?

Aazadan: Read the weapons forum sometime, or just about any 2nd amendment thread. A lot of posters have very warped views of their guns, and calling it an unhealthy obsession bordering on worship is completely fair. They've made a religion out of the 2nd amendment.

To compare worship (dogma/religion) as being the same as the individual that is a believer/upholder of constitutional law is ludicrous. You realize you have just revealed a personal problem regarding religious doctrines (your evaluation requires a grand leap of logic).

originally posted by: Aazadan
originally posted by: vethumanbeing
a reply to: Wolfenz

vhb: What is being counted upon is this; as the older generations die off (by natural attrition) and the newer generations bifurcate; have the potential to be 'indoctrinated' (not having a clue as to what took place in the past) or warped/manipulated into thinking or understanding the idea of Socialism/Communism 101 can be a positive.

Aazadan: So you want to instead indoctrinate them into believing socialism and communism are inherently evil?
Current societies have access to the combined knowledge of all of human history at their fingertips. I think people are perfectly capable of coming to their own conclusions without the previous generations indoctrinating them into what they believe to be right.

Would you rather their public school first through twelfth grade teachers tell them otherwise (reverse indoctrination by others you have no control over). The fun part is this ITS A TWELVE PROCESS. No wonder our college age youngsters think Bernie Sanders is a White Knight "Why do we have to pay for anything; it should all be free"! Funny thing about Communist/Socialist societies, you actually don't get to keep any money you earn. It all goes to the state in the form of taxes. You may be able to go to the local auto parts store and get a muffler for free, but it is questionable if that part exists anymore as there is no incentive for anyone to bother manufacturing it.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Historically socialism/communism is a failed system because it is ripe for corruption (the very few in power control the masses). That power which within itself lays a foundation (acquiescent) eyes wide open to such potential evils as has ever been. People that come to a sane conclusion generally immigrate to free countries/not to Cuba, North Korea, Libya, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China or the militia run states in Africa.

You're referring to a political structure, not an economic structure. Norway and Venezuela are both socialist but they have completely different political systems.

Failures in a political system can be solved through the ballot box. Economically socialism isn't a failed system. Communism on the other hand is a failed system because people won't work efficiently without a personal reward. Capitalism is also a failed system because it only works in closed economies, once you can outsource labor the whole system breaks down.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Okay...how many people do that? How many of them are legal gun owners to begin with?

Owning a gun doesn't exempt you from personal failings. The vast majority of non gang gun crime in this country is committed by people who were up until the moment they committed a crime, a legal gun owner.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
To compare worship (dogma/religion) as being the same as the individual that is a believer/upholder of constitutional law is ludicrous. You realize you have just revealed a personal problem regarding religious doctrines (your evaluation requires a grand leap of logic).

Not at all. Believing in something and taking it to extremes are entirely different concepts. I can believe in removing criminals from society by jailing them without believing in removing them from society by killing them.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Would you rather their public school first through twelfth grade teachers tell them otherwise (reverse indoctrination by others you have no control over).

By the time someone is an adult they can make up their own minds after being given facts and observing real world scenarios. If they're unable to do that it's a failure of the schools, and the fix for people being unable to learn how to reason isn't to give them all the "answers", it's to make them come up with and justify their own answers.

Also, I would argue that 12 grades isn't nearly enough to fit in everything people should know. Compulsory education should go to at least age 25 these days (or we could make it 26 for a nice round grade 20). Modern society requires in depth knowledge on a wide range of fields and it's impossible to fit that into 12 or even 15 years.

I believe what is not being address is crime.

Guns are not the problem here, it is crime.

I don't see any politions in Washington address this issue.

originally posted by: Aazadan
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

Aazadan: You're referring to a political structure, not an economic structure. Norway and Venezuela are both socialist but they have completely different political systems. Failures in a political system can be solved through the ballot box. Economically socialism isn't a failed system. Communism on the other hand is a failed system because people won't work efficiently without a personal reward. Capitalism is also a failed system because it only works in closed economies, once you can outsource labor the whole system breaks down.

Eco/political is all tied together. Capitalism is failing here because our manufacturing is being outsourced to third world countries.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
To compare worship (dogma/religion) as being the same as the individual that is a believer/upholder of constitutional law is ludicrous. You realize you have just revealed a personal problem regarding religious doctrines (your evaluation requires a grand leap of logic).

Aa: Not at all. Believing in something and taking it to extremes are entirely different concepts. I can believe in removing criminals from society by jailing them without believing in removing them from society by killing them.

The criminal justice system is fair as to your conceptualization; perhaps .01 percent of convicted murderers are rewarded with a death sentence.

a reply to: Aazadan

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

"The vast majority of crime committed by non-repeat offenders is committed by first time offenders."

No crap Sherlock. Way to blow the doors off the discussion.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Aazadan

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

"The vast majority of crime committed by non-repeat offenders is committed by first time offenders."

No crap Sherlock. Way to blow the doors off the discussion.

It wasn't meant to be profound, only to point out that using the metrics of how many law abiding gun owners there are out there is flawed. Everyone is a legal gun owner, until they become a criminal. You have to look at crime rates, not how many aren't committing crime.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Eco/political is all tied together. Capitalism is failing here because our manufacturing is being outsourced to third world countries.

Political is completely separate. Nothing ties Capitalism to Democracy.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
The criminal justice system is fair as to your conceptualization; perhaps .01 percent of convicted murderers are rewarded with a death sentence.

I wasn't thinking of murderers when I wrote that. I was thinking more along the lines of a thief who gets 10 years in prison. We don't simply kill them to permanently solve the problem, and rational people don't push the death penalty for a thief as a real solution.

a reply to: Aazadan
Democracy and free capitalism are deeply tied together. I have no thoughts regarding your idea of giving the death penalty to thieves as any good (forward thinking) solution; as we shouldn't 'simply kill them'.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Democracy and free capitalism are deeply tied together.

No, they are not. It is just the opposite in fact as Democracy involves voting money and power from group A to group B, its very nature results in market manipulation. The most natural course for unchecked capitalism is to end in dictatorship under an umbrella corporation.

originally posted by: Aazadan
originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Democracy and free capitalism are deeply tied together.

Aazadan: No, they are not. It is just the opposite in fact as Democracy involves voting money and power from group A to group B, its very nature results in market manipulation. The most natural course for unchecked capitalism is to end in dictatorship under an umbrella corporation.

You realize the Constitution of this United States was both a man and God AGREED upon manifesto based on trust (came to a solid conclusion) as to how to run (first ever) a true "democratic" republic. Market manipulation involves speculators (within margins). What are you speaking of? Corporations are taking control of our politics (superpacs)? If so the giants of corporations: Monsanto, Union Pacific, ADM, Siemens, DuPont, Apple, Lockheed Martin, Ford, CocaCola, General Mills, Nabisco will go to war and destroy each other seeking that 'singular event' dictatorship?

I don't even own a gun, but I promise you this; if a highly restrictive gun law is ever enacted I will obtain one, whether legally or not, and god help anyone who tries to take it from me.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
You realize the Constitution of this United States was both a man and God AGREED upon manifesto based on trust (came to a solid conclusion) as to how to run (first ever) a true "democratic" republic. Market manipulation involves speculators (within margins). What are you speaking of? Corporations are taking control of our politics (superpacs)? If so the giants of corporations: Monsanto, Union Pacific, ADM, Siemens, DuPont, Apple, Lockheed Martin, Ford, CocaCola, General Mills, Nabisco will go to war and destroy each other seeking that 'singular event' dictatorship?

No, I don't agree. God has nothing to do with the Constitution, and the Constitution itself as passed had none of the freedoms in it that you mention. It was merely an outline of the 3 branches of government. Everything after that was Amendments that were argued about by the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Trust in government doesn't exist, our system is built with one key principal in mind. No politician, office, or branch of government can be trusted. That's why all of the areas of government that are mostly non corrupt have oversight and transparency. It's also why the branches can overrule each other.

What superpacs are doing is the same thing individuals do on a smaller level. They're organizing funding groups. That's how democracy works. Except the most powerful groups aren't the government, it's the corporations. For one corporation to gain influence another has to lose it, until eventually it consolidates into one.

Perhaps a picture will make my point easier, here's a chart of bank mergers from 2000 to 2009.

Unless you can maintain perfect competition (which requires high levels of government interference, and is probably impossible) over time all corporations merge into a singular entity that controls everything.

originally posted by: Informer1958
I believe what is not being address is crime.

Guns are not the problem here, it is crime.

I don't see any politions in Washington address this issue.

Is it crime or the massive propaganda of all crime by the media. Crime in itself has steadily gone down every year since 1992.

a reply to: MateoVeritas

Now that the courts have rendered another illegal ruling are you still getting a rifle?

originally posted by: Aazadan
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

vhb: You realize the Constitution of this United States was both a man and God AGREED upon manifesto based on trust (came to a solid conclusion) as to how to run (first ever) a true "democratic" republic. Market manipulation involves speculators (within margins). What are you speaking of? Corporations are taking control of our politics (superpacs)? If so the giants of corporations: Monsanto, Union Pacific, ADM, Siemens, DuPont, Apple, Lockheed Martin, Ford, CocaCola, General Mills, Nabisco will go to war and destroy each other seeking that 'singular event' dictatorship?

Aazadan: No, I don't agree. God has nothing to do with the Constitution, and the Constitution itself as passed had none of the freedoms in it that you mention. It was merely an outline of the 3 branches of government. Everything after that was Amendments that were argued about by the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Trust in government doesn't exist, our system is built with one key principal in mind. No politician, office, or branch of government can be trusted. That's why all of the areas of government that are mostly non corrupt have oversight and transparency. It's also why the branches can overrule each other.

The Devil exists within these details not God?

If I may...
... it is my opinion that should any person, in any office, seek to revoke the 2nd Amendment and forcefully disarm this nation, it would lead to the end of the same.

Be it by individual states breaking away or actual conflict between citizens and government... or both, the United States of America, as it has been since the US Constitution was originally enacted, would come to an end.

I hope and pray such never occurs but... it would be the perfect avenue to national destruction for anyone seeking such.

...

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Wolfenz

But was McVeigh a patsy though...? Could a fertilizer bomb in a truck cause that much damage? Could he have been setup, or pushed into action? We know that the FBI uses informants to encourage people to engage in activities in order to arrest them on terrorism charges.

Even more shocking was that the organisation, money, weapons and motivation for this plot did not come from real Islamic terrorists. It came from the FBI, and an informant paid to pose as a terrorist mastermind paying big bucks for help in carrying out an attack. For McWilliams, her own government had actually cajoled and paid her beloved nephew into being a terrorist, created a fake plot and then jailed him for it. "I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone," she told the Guardian.

The Guardian

Given what we know now about FBI operations, it might be worth looking through the OKC bombing with fresh eyes. Domestic terrorism is becoming a new target again for the federal government, it generally goes in cycles. We'll focus on external terrorism for a bit, then focus on internal/domestic terrorism for a bit.

possibility , im just pointing out there is no need for guns for Terrorism , BOMBS , Silent Weapons , Chemical Warfare Bio Warfare etc..

We know that the FBI uses informants to encourage people to engage in activities in order to arrest them on terrorism charges.

well Mcveigh could of been a Patsty, even tho he did say he was, nor did Nichols either ,

the only one that claimed to be from a a faint video was Lee Harvey Oswald the claimed Lone Gunman LOL ..
he had all the Criteria ( Communist sympathizer, involvement of the Marines, tried to defect to USSR, even was on national Television talking about it ( video exist ) lead of his job at the book depository building all lead to the connection of Allan Dulles's Wife!!!! and that's a fact ( Oswald Wife ! was living with Allan Dulles close friend !! Oswald's wife taught her to speak Russian! that another fact.. ) of being the Pastys a ( Planned ) Scapegoat