Poland probes US historian for saying that ‘Poles killed more Jews than Germans’

Well here we have what we call revisionist antisemitism disguised as scholarly works...

This guy, makes unbelievable claims that Poland caused more atrocity towards the Jews than Nazi Germany...

& it has been frowned upon heavily, rightly so.

Warsaw prosecutor’s office has launched a probe into a statement made by an American historian, who claimed that Poles “actually killed more Jews than Germans” during WWII.

I'd like to know his sources for such an audacious asseveration.

Jan Tomasz Gross, a US Princeton University professor of history and sociology, who is himself of Polish origin, is being accused of public insult as well as defaming Poland and sullying the country’s good name.

The case against Gross is based on Article 133 of the Polish Criminal Code, according to which the American professor could face up to three years imprisonment for “publicly insulting the Polish nation or the Republic of Poland,” Przemyslaw Nowak, a spokesman for the prosecutor’s office, said on Thursday.

Now I strongly disagree with this revisionism, it's detriment to historical accounts...

But I'm a fan of freedom of speech, and I do see 3 years (possibly) for "insulting" a country to not only be a tragedy of justice, but also a slippery slope.


Unreal, I hope he is not convicted...
A fitting punishment, or consequence of going overboard with his human right to free speech, should be ostracism from the history community...

But not prison time.
I'll never agree with that.



www.rt.com...

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

It is an extreme hyperbole from what I can see.

There is an ugly truth that goes unmentioned. Jewish bigotry in Europe well pre-dates the Nazis.

There's the predisposition of "Jews being 'Christ killers'. (It omits the fact that the supporters of Christ, not to mention the disciples, were, themselves, "Jews".)

Then there's the Russian angle. With the advent of 'socialism' the first(?) official split between the 'traditional' co-operation between the church and Royalty/gov't took place. Jews were targeted first-I'm guessing on that one- pogroms seems to have originated in Russia, then the suppression of Russia's main religion, The Russian Orthodox Church. (Well resurged after the fall of the 'official' Soviet Union.)

Again, I'm unsure of this one, but, it seems that the Communist/Socialist pipeline developed fastest in France. Long a hotbed of Communist/Socialist even in the early '30s.

Of course Jews were labeled money lenders, yet they were, by cultural norms, if not outright law, forbidden from owning property. Not much left for them other than money lenders.....

Poland was quite anti-Semitic just before WWII. So was the rest of Europe. There was co-operation between Poles and Nazis in interning Jews. Again, a guess but, partly in full agreement with the Germans partly in fear of those same Germans.

A very loose interpretation on my part with only casual study in the subject.....

The thing about Nazis, especially the SS in charge of the camps is they got their victims to do most of the labor, the camps were built by forced labor, and most of the dirty work was done by the victims, too. Groups of prisoners chosen from the camp population called Sonderkommando were made into work groups that handled most of the labor surrounding the peoples to be exterminated from the moment they arrived to the moment they went up the crematorium chimney.

The SS handled admin., guarding and oversaw the day to day operations. The brutality directed out to work groups was also handled by Kappos chosen for their simple brutality and or desire to survive.

But make no mistake about it, even though the NAZIs got others as much as possible to do their dirty work for them, they invented the camps, financed and directed their building to exterminate anyone who got in their way.

There is so much more history to WW2, the Jews, the Poles, the Germans, the Brits, the Austrians....

WW2 is written, but I've been doing a LOT of research on it lately, and well history isn't completely accurate

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I'm curious who the Rothchilds bought Jerusalem from?? That fact that the British restricted Jewish emigration seems contradictory to the supposed fact that the Rothchilds held so much 'sway' in the British Gov't.

I've always held the swinish suspicion that the British were more concerned with keeping the Suez Canal away from any one ethnicity having potentially complete control of that vital economic pipeline that fed the empire.

Ist Ammendment, free speech....it's bullsh#t when it comes to the Jews.

The thought police in full force when having an opinion on the Holocaust can throw you in jail. Imagine if it was illegal to doubt that the Dresden carpet bombing killed 100,000 people. Imagine if you believed Mao only killed 1 million people. I mean, you'd be dumb, but to go to prison for it? Anti-semitism laws are ridiculous.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Well here we have what we call revisionist antisemitism

How is it anti semitic?

From the very brief reading I've done it looks like Poland has had issues with anti semitism for a long time, and it's on the upswing again. It also appears people in Poland did in fact take advantage of Jews.

Is he IN Poland? If he's convicted and is a US citizen I think we'll just laugh at Poland for thinking itself important.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: the2ofusr1

I'm curious who the Rothchilds bought Jerusalem from?? That fact that the British restricted Jewish emigration seems contradictory to the supposed fact that the Rothchilds held so much 'sway' in the British Gov't.

I've always held the swinish suspicion that the British were more concerned with keeping the Suez Canal away from any one ethnicity having potentially complete control of that vital economic pipeline that fed the empire.

The Rothschilds were said by one newspaper source from 1829 to have purchased Jerusalem from the Ottoman Sultan. There is NO other source and no other public record. It is hotly disputed that this ever took place. It is more than likely a gross exaggeration and says more about anti Semitism and suspicion about the Rothschilds at that time than any fact of purchase.

The strongest argument against the Rothschilds having procured Jerusalem at a price is the fact that Theodor Herzl visited the Ottoman Empire some 70 years later, offering to pay the Turkish national debt if the Sultan agreed to allow Jews access to Palestine. Would he have had to ask permission if the Rothschilds did in fact own Jerusalem?

a reply to: Vector99

Did you read the whole article or just the headline? It says nothing that would contradict mainstream history books.

Yes, anti semitism has long been rife in Europe, but "Poland killed more Jews than Nazi Germany"?
Over what time period are we speaking? 6 years between 1939-1945? Or 100 years? 200 years?

Its a wild claim that I don't think can substantiated.

a reply to: nonjudgementalist

I've not only read it but studied the history. Yea Germany didn't like the Jews, at that time not many did. Germany made a push to purge the jews from Germany prior to WW2. Hitler Tried to negotiate settlement areas for the Jews. The Jews nationless took financial influence on Germany, an already war-torn, broken, rebuilding nation.

The Jews ensured WW2 with the financial blockade on Germany.

ADD

ESPECIALLY WHEN THE POLES GOT THE BACKING OF THE BRITS

One practical consideration;
If the historian is an American resident, and if the crime is not extraditable, then the investigation cannot be more than a publicity exercise.

originally posted by: nonjudgementalist
a reply to: Vector99

Did you read the whole article or just the headline? It says nothing that would contradict mainstream history books.

Yes, anti semitism has long been rife in Europe, but "Poland killed more Jews than Nazi Germany"?
Over what time period are we speaking? 6 years between 1939-1945? Or 100 years? 200 years?

Its a wild claim that I don't think can substantiated.

I didn't read a damn thing from the OP. My knowledge on WW2 is my own education.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Knowing that the Rothchilds bought Jerusalem in 1829 was a big surprise for me and really should be in history books but it's not .

That story was brought up in a thread a few months back, and I recall the details.
Firstly, it was a speculative story in a Baltimore newspaper, a source distant from the scene. "There is a report that..."
Secondly, someone was able to track down and post on the thread an academic article on land-owning patterns in nineteenth century Palestine, which ignored any purchase of "Jerusalem", described Jewish purchases as beginning later in the century, and described the Rothschild initiatives as beginning at the end of the century.
Indeed, it was explained that foreign purchases of land were forbidden (until at least after the Crimean war) without the special permission given in a firman from the Sultan.
Changng patterns of landownership in nineteenth-century Palestine: the European influence
In other words, it is completely unsafe to treat the story as settled history. That's how myths get started.

ever thoughts that the anti semetic laws where establist to hide the truth ???? a reply to: Logman

originally posted by: intrptr
The thing about Nazis, especially the SS in charge of the camps is they got their victims to do most of the labor, the camps were built by forced labor, and most of the dirty work was done by the victims, too. Groups of prisoners chosen from the camp population called Sonderkommando were made into work groups that handled most of the labor surrounding the peoples to be exterminated from the moment they arrived to the moment they went up the crematorium chimney.

The SS handled admin., guarding and oversaw the day to day operations. The brutality directed out to work groups was also handled by Kappos chosen for their simple brutality and or desire to survive.

But make no mistake about it, even though the NAZIs got others as much as possible to do their dirty work for them, they invented the camps, financed and directed their building to exterminate anyone who got in their way.


Take a look at the history of the boar war, south africa...

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: nonjudgementalist

I've not only read it but studied the history. Yea Germany didn't like the Jews, at that time not many did. Germany made a push to purge the jews from Germany prior to WW2. Hitler Tried to negotiate settlement areas for the Jews. The Jews nationless took financial influence on Germany, an already war-torn, broken, rebuilding nation.

The Jews ensured WW2 with the financial blockade on Germany.

ADD

ESPECIALLY WHEN THE POLES GOT THE BACKING OF THE BRITS

I thought American banks made huge loans to Germany during the thirties? Germany was bankrupt by 1939, so the wars were used to steal gold and foreign currency from the banks of the defeated nations? or did i read all these history books in a parallel universe?

a reply to: Revolution9

Thanks for the clarification.

It isn't totally unrealistic that owning Jerusalem or major parts thereof wouldn't particularly assure immigration to Palestine.

That's the problem with these assertions, easy to make, difficult to debunk.

"What is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof".

I know for a fact that Poles saved their friends and neighbors and fellow villagers who happened to be Jewish. And that in fact, some Germans killed and conscripted or imprisoned them for doing so. This guy can blow his revisionist crap out his......

a reply to: ~Lucidity

That IS true. Some Poles did assist the Germans as well.

One can't rubber stamp a whole nation this way without a motive. Clearly, the deal between Hitler and Stalin to split Poland is being buried with this rhetoric....