Does Concious Awareness Prove We Have a Transcending Soul?

This is something I've pondered since I was a child, but I've so far never been able to explain it well enough to make sense to anybody else.

The question is: If human life has existed for at least 30k years and in that time produced billions of individuals, what are the odds that my consciousness is aware of it's existence right now, in 2015? My lifespan is only a tiny fraction of the history of human (or any) life. The odds tell me that my soul should have lived and died long ago, or shouldn't have been created yet. But here I am, right now, able to ask this question.

To me, this proves that our "soul" is real and never dies. It leads me to believe our consciousness is eternally reincarnated into other life forms...human or not.

Or, it's possible that this is truly my 1 shot to live and this question means nothing, but I suppose it's a gut feeling that tells me that's not correct.

a reply to: Battlefresh

Ahhhh yes, "gut feelings" = just about the most unreliable source imaginable. Your argument makes no logical sense. You use the fact of your temporal existence in the present as proof of the human soul. This makes no sense at all. It is wishy washy and insubstantial. Does the amoeba or little ant have the same claim because all these billions of years later they happen to be existing in the same time period as you?

Hmmm, rulers on palms OP!

It may be that consciousness is just a by-product. Certainly creation does not make way for our sensitivity and does not even acknowledge our ability to feel. An earth quake could take a thousand lives today and what would nature care about that? Nature has no apparent consciousness. We humans make up an illusion of consciousness yet it is not even a physical reality. Are we just making it up because we happen to have psychological feelings, memories, familial and social bonds etc?

a reply to: Battlefresh

Or, it's possible that this is truly my 1 shot to live and this question means nothing, but I suppose it's a gut feeling that tells me that's not correct.

Nah, you got it right. It's an endless procession of habitation.

a reply to: Battlefresh

hey, if you are really interested then look up tibetan budhisem reincarnation (dzogchen or mahamudra). Their concepts about the stuff you are talking about are very on the point and it explains so without the god or soul entities.

And in a way your gut filling is correct and you should pursuit it further

"Gut feeling" is another word for intuition in which we all have. The fact that your questioning reincarnation is a sign that your souls journey is moving forward or is showing signs of progress. We have to learn we can't put numbers on how long humans have been around we don't know and won't be told the truth by those in control. So we use our intuition and past lives kinda like resources. Did you ever realize your good at something you never tried before or have a certain knowledge of something or a subject you never studied? That happens because we carry our past knowledge with us from life to life. Our soul and spirit are our hard drives with infinite amount of space. For some souls are sold and many spirits easily broken, so who's to say how many life times you have to live before you find yourself questioning your very existence. And accepting past knowledge as facts that don't need proved because your gut is telling you, you already have the answers your craving or searching for inside. All you have to do is trust your gut in the purest form your intuition. Whether your were a man one life a woman the next a bug after that each life we pick sometimes assigned as punishment but generally picked so we can learn the specific lessons we need to learn to further our souls journey and strengthen our spirit. To handle the real world once we graduate from this school we call earth.

Some souls/consciousness are allowed to evolve toward enlightenment and Nirvana.

Others are stored in the soul catchers on the moon; in effect purgatory.

So be nice to people and animals if you want to have a pleasant afterlife.

Karma....doncha no?

Ok - Let's dissect what is your conscious awareness for a minute.

Firstly, in all my life experience, I've never seen a single creature that did NOT have personal awareness. From the smallest insect to the largest mammals, each certainly is aware of it's self and surroundings. Those bubbles of awareness might be a bit smaller in some creatures but they are there. Everything knows when it's in danger, hungry or needs to reproduce. How can we presume it's not aware of its self during everyday existence?

Now, take a moment and strip your mind of all words. I'm not asking you to master meditation in 10 seconds but, it's the same kind of thing. Try to just "be" you without words inside your mind. Eschew them away.

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*
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Presuming you've at least attempted it, consider this: Without those words describing your state of being, you can begin to see how our personal awareness is not terribly different from any other creature.
Your body needs different things. Hunger, thirst, sexual desire, sleep, waste relief are all basic physical necessities.

"YOU" are aware of your existence, but beyond that, your basic needs are what drives you. Emotions play into these basic day to day needs and add to your awareness.
Consider your levels of personal awareness during sleep. Unless, stimulated to awaken for some reason, what awareness do you have other than the quasi awareness found in dreams? The majority of sleep is dreamless and thoughtless.
Consider your material desire while you are sleeping. You don't give a crap about watching some movie or buying some item while you are sleeping. You don't give a care about that person you work with or even a close family member/issue.
It simply does not matter. What we define to be our earthly desires only exist while we are awake and yet, we exist.

Again, pretend you know not a single word. Before you is a meal and you are hungry. You begin to eat but then, someone else swipes away your food and eats it themselves. You will FEEL the emotions of anger and frustration. Perhaps even sadness that your meal is gone. But without words, you cannot define WHY you feel this way.

Our personal awareness that we label our conscious selves is universal. Everything has it. As we grow and learn through experience and study, our bubble of personal awareness and knowledge grows. However, without the complex language that humans developed, there is no study, just personal experience, still nothing to define ANYTHING. There are no words that mean "understanding", "science", "success". There is simply no way to even conceive of an afterlife or soul.

We use our words to define our selves. We use our words to give ideas labels and meanings. We use our words to understand the world around us. We use our words to rationalize inside our minds, what we desire, what we know. Without them, the animals we are becomes quite obvious. Without them, there is no rationalization of a life beyond. Language DEFINES our personal conscious. Our awareness is the same as everything else.

To me, this is part of what makes it obvious that we do not have souls or an afterlife.

a reply to: gottaknow

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's impossible to ignore our ability to (whether internally or externally) vocalize our emotions. Communication is part of being human, it's innate from birth. Perhaps this is further proof that we do in fact have a soul. Perhaps a soul is what gives us instinct? I would never discredit an animal as I don't believe humans are any more or less important than any other living creature and I am comfortable with a universe so complex that every living creature could, yes, have it's own soul.

Without language I agree with you that basically we are just creatures of environmental reaction, but once we are able to form a thought process that's where we start to bridge our "basic" selves with our "complex" selves. I believe you could raise 100 babies in the same room and each one would grow up with completely different attitudes and perspectives. It must be more than just their environment shaping them.

Yes I know a gut feeling isn't scientific...that's why I'm posting this in the "Philosophy and Metaphysics" forum section. Also, I just think it's pretty fortunate of me to be born in Southern California, in 2015, with modern conveniences, etc. If we have no soul or nothing carries on then why would I be naturally curious about this? And if this is my "one shot" at life, why this time in history? If we're all the same inside, then how come every person in the world hasn't posted this same question yet?

Revolution9 you need to try thinking outside your box. After all isn't that why we're on these boards?

originally posted by: BattlefreshDoes Concious Awareness Prove We Have a Transcending Soul?

Perhaps a few definitions;

"Consciousness is the ground of all being!" - Copenhagen interpretation of quantum nechanics
One Universal Consciousness!

Existence = the complete Universe = Nature = Reality = Consciousness = Truth = Love = 'Self!' = God = Brahman = Tao = ... etc....
ALL INCLUSIVE!!
'One'!

We are all unique Conscious Perspectives (Souls) that exist for one Planck moment, simultaneously!

There is One (unchanging, ALL inclusive) Universal Reality/Self that is uniquely perceived each moment by the Soul
Every point in the Universe is Consciousness and every point in the Universe is a unique Soul that perceives That Which Is before Us! Whether a human body or the sun!
There is no "my Soul", there is Soul, the 'me' is a figment of ego/imagination, which is also perceived by the Soul!

A Moment is NOT a unit of 'time' but a unit of perception, a percept!

"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Here! Now!!

"Reality is a synchrony of moments."

'Past' and 'future' only exist in the imagination/thoughts, that are 'perceived' (we do not manufacture 'thought' in that wet lump of meat rattling around in our skulls) Here! Now!
Thus 'reincarnation' exists in the imagination, with 'time' and 'motion'!

Perhaps some food for thought... *__-

a reply to: namelesss

That's not the same definition of consciousness that I know of. "Consciousness" as you conceive it is not the "ground of all being". I would guess that being is the ground of all being.

A rock isn't conscious and there's no way you can prove to me it is. Neither can you prove to me that the universe is conscious.

originally posted by: Talorc
a reply to: namelesss

That's not the same definition of consciousness that I know of.

I did not offer a 'definition' of Consciousness.
There can be no such definition, by definition! *__-

"Consciousness" as you conceive it is not the "ground of all being". I would guess that being is the ground of all being.

That wasn't my words, that was a quote from Neils Bohr of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.
As I credited it the first time.
I assume that you know nothing of quantum mechanics?
Nevertheless, if you think you have something that enlighten Mr. Bohr and colleagues (and a few millennia of Enlightened mystics), you can always email them.
So far you have told me you don't like what I wrote, for some reason, but neglected to tell me why.
So, you didn't say anything for me to respond.
If you don't share your reasoning, how can I learn? *__-

A rock isn't conscious and there's no way you can prove to me it is. Neither can you prove to me that the universe is conscious.

Your emotional irrational demands, and mind tightly fortified against perceived attack, tells me that I am up against a 'self-defense' mechanism of a 'belief'. Not a 'rational thing'.
I think that I can make an excellent case, that could provide delicious intellectual nutrition for decades of epiphanies unto Enlightenment/unconditional Love, for one not so afraid.
There is no attack.
I'm just sharing that there is more to 'you' then you are (yet) aware.
I'm not here to argue, nor to infect you with more 'beliefs', nor to 'change your mind'.
I am just reflecting a larger Reality then your imagination can conceive.
They talk of the 'light at the end of the tunnel', but that Light can be frightening!
Thus the circling of the wagons of your ego from an imagined attack.
When you get past that fear, I'll be happy to take you on a wonderful trip. *__-

"Wake-up, wake-up. Behold the Self which shines like the sun!"

a reply to: Battlefresh

hmm. Maybe I didn't state it correctly, but it wasn't exactly communication I was referring to.

It's language itself. Developing words that mean things. Giving labels to concepts and ideas. Words allow our bubbles of awareness to grow, letting us create concepts of souls, afterlifes and other things like math, fairies and organization. That sounds kinda big and kinda crazy at the same time, I know. But without them, we just "are".

Yes, we could point at that plate of food and shout at the thief before striking them to show our anger. We can communicate our emotions. But without complex language, you cannot define WHY you feel that is wrong - even to your self.

Take those 100 babies in the same room analogy. It's very true that each would grow up differently to some extent. Some people are born aggressive while others take a more submissive attitude from the beginning. One might find the color red enticing, after making associations with red lips or a red rose. While another might find the color terrifying with an association of the color of blood. However, if you give these babies absolutely no language, they aren't likely to advance much or invent higher concepts like math. They might well develop their own forms of communication with each other and start to develop a language of their own(cuz we're smart like dat!), but they would still remain primitive for generations. Eventually, one or more of them will start to wonder what's outside that room and thus begin their own religious pursuits.

The power we derive from language is what truly sets us apart from other life on this planet. Yes, many other creatures can communicate within their species. Yet, they don't have our seemingly endless vocabulary that has both greatly enhanced humans and at the same time, played a part in separating us from nature. Language GAVE us the the power of reasoning and learning. It helps us make the questions and the answers. Without it, you would never even grasp the concept of a soul.

If we have no soul or nothing carries on then why would I be naturally curious about this?

Because it's our nature to be curious. We're going to wonder what's outside our Earthly room. Why we're here and what's the meaning of it all? But simply having curiosity doesn't mean that there's a grand answer.

And if this is my "one shot" at life, why this time in history?

Why not? Reproduction doesn't offer answers, it just happens. One sperm, one egg, created you - just as it created me - just as it created some guy in some indigenous tribe that has no idea what a car or spoon is and never will.

If we're all the same inside, then how come every person in the world hasn't posted this same question yet?

I only meant that we all have our own personal awareness; not that we're the same. We're similar - more similar than we care to think anymore with all of our labels and divisions and whatnot. And while not everyone has posted this same question, I can guarantee you that multitudes have. I've seen probably at least a dozen just about like it on this site alone over the years and I don't pay THAT close of attention.

a reply to: namelesss

The fellow who authored that quote didn't mean it in the way you think he did. And yes, I don't know anything about quantum mechanics, and I don't pretend to. It's not a subject that one can learn from casual reading. I imagine it takes years of study in the field. This calls into question the legitimacy of people on the Internet who like to think they understand quantum physics.

Here is the entire quote in context:

Now, the opposite view is that everything starts with consciousness. That is, consciousness is the ground of all being. In this view, consciousness imposes "downward causation." In other words, our free will is real. When we act in the world we really are acting with causal power. This view does not deny that matter also has causal potency — it does not deny that there is causal power from elementary particles upward, so there is upward causation — but in addition it insists that there is also downward causation. It shows up in our creativity and acts of free will, or when we make moral decisions. In those occasions we are actually witnessing downward causation by consciousness.

Evidently, things aren't so singular and absolute as you'd like to portray. The full quote does not just imply that "consciousness is the ground of all being". It says very clearly that "material causation" isn't discounted.

originally posted by: Talorc
a reply to: namelesss
The fellow who authored that quote didn't mean it in the way you think he did.

Even if you are privy to his personal thoughts (which I doubt), where all 'meaning' lies, it doesn't matter.
It is a truth and is supportable from many disparate sources just as I interpret it!

"A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanged; it is the skin of a living thought and may vary greatly in color and content according to the circumstances and time in which it is used." -Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

“Genuinely successful theories interconnect information from previously disparate areas of experience,” said Adolf Grünbaum, the Andrew Mellon Professor of Philosophy at the University of Pittsburgh.

And yes, I don't know anything about quantum mechanics, and I don't pretend to. It's not a subject that one can learn from casual reading. I imagine it takes years of study in the field. This calls into question the legitimacy of people on the Internet who like to think they understand quantum physics.

So, what you are saying is that since you are ignorant of the subject, and are not interested in learning anything (you already have an excuse), therefore you dismiss what I might say because if 'you' don't understand' no one can?
Casual reading can teach you something.
Years of study can teach you more.

But as long as you remain ignorant of the subject (willingly?), then what is the point of your commenting?

Here is the entire quote in context:

Now, the opposite view is that everything starts with consciousness. That is, consciousness is the ground of all being. In this view, consciousness imposes "downward causation." In other words, our free will is real. When we act in the world we really are acting with causal power. This view does not deny that matter also has causal potency — it does not deny that there is causal power from elementary particles upward, so there is upward causation — but in addition it insists that there is also downward causation. It shows up in our creativity and acts of free will, or when we make moral decisions. In those occasions we are actually witnessing downward causation by consciousness.

All that 'free-will/choice' and 'causality' are imaginary nonsense.
The quote that I quoted is true, and that Perspective is quite supportable!
Without the obfuscation of the imaginary vanity/ego!

Evidently, things aren't so singular and absolute as you'd like to portray. The full quote does not just imply that "consciousness is the ground of all being". It says very clearly that "material causation" isn't discounted.

I discount it, with good science and philosophy!
Einstein didn't have to invent numerals to take them further than his predecessors!
Refer to Holmes' quote again, with both ears! *__-!

edit on 18-10-2015 by namelesss because: (no reason given)