The ‘cult’-like church whose members are accused of fatally beating a teen

Religion is the bane of humanity, imo, especially those high-control religions.
....religions that take "spare the rod and spoil the child" to extreme interpretation
....religions that shun family and friends if they decide to leave the faith they grew up in
....religions that make women out to be weak and unworthy by quoting scripture that says they are the "weaker vessel".
....religions that instill fear and guilt in the heart of a child for every little misbehavior

I say tax the h*** out of them all. They don't abide by the rule NOT to preach politics from the pulpit anyway. So tax them, audit them, and hold them accountable for all the hate, corruption, lies, deviance, and violence they perpetrate on humanity.

a reply to: queenofswords

Personally I'm an advocate for the constitution. Both the first and the second amendment. I'll do my thing, and you will let me do my thing as long as I'm not hurting anyone else with it. These people clearly were hurting someone else. Case closed. That does not give you the right to hold all of us accountable for it.

originally posted by: ngchunter
a reply to: queenofswords

Personally I'm an advocate for the constitution. Both the first and the second amendment. I'll do my thing, and you will let me do my thing as long as I'm not hurting anyone else with it. These people clearly were hurting someone else. Case closed. That does not give you the right to hold all of us accountable for it.

The Political Christian lobby gives me the right to hold Christians accountable.

It is illegal for preachers to promote politics from the pulpit. But, so far a blind eye is turned.

Tax exempt has rules. They are breaking those rules. Therefore, the tax exemptions should be denied or removed.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ngchunter
a reply to: queenofswords

Personally I'm an advocate for the constitution. Both the first and the second amendment. I'll do my thing, and you will let me do my thing as long as I'm not hurting anyone else with it. These people clearly were hurting someone else. Case closed. That does not give you the right to hold all of us accountable for it.

The Political Christian lobby gives me the right to hold Christians accountable.

It is illegal for preachers to promote politics from the pulpit.

Actually it's illegal for preachers to promote or campaign for candidates from the pulpit.

Currently, the law prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501(c)(3) organization as one "which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

www.irs.gov...
That is not the same as "promoting politics," such as urging their members to vote in general, or discussing issues such as abortion and marriage.

churches and other 501(c)(3) organizations can engage in a limited amount of lobbying (including ballot measures) and advocate for or against issues that are in the political arena.

www.irs.gov...
Consider yourself educated.

originally posted by: ngchunter

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ngchunter
a reply to: queenofswords

Personally I'm an advocate for the constitution. Both the first and the second amendment. I'll do my thing, and you will let me do my thing as long as I'm not hurting anyone else with it. These people clearly were hurting someone else. Case closed. That does not give you the right to hold all of us accountable for it.

The Political Christian lobby gives me the right to hold Christians accountable.

It is illegal for preachers to promote politics from the pulpit.

Actually it's illegal for preachers to promote or campaign for candidates from the pulpit.

Currently, the law prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501(c)(3) organization as one "which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

www.irs.gov...
That is not the same as "promoting politics," such as urging their members to vote in general, or discussing issues such as abortion and marriage.

churches and other 501(c)(3) organizations can engage in a limited amount of lobbying (including ballot measures) and advocate for or against issues that are in the political arena.

www.irs.gov...
Consider yourself educated.

Oh, and for your further education, do note that I just cited the IRS itself. Not a biased conservative source. *mic drop*

originally posted by: ngchunter

Actually it's illegal for preachers to promote or campaign for candidates from the pulpit.

Yes, I know that. And many in recent years have been promoting specific candidates by name.

And carefully chosen words lets you know exactly which candidate without mentioning names.

I grew up Christian. I know the "congregation hotline" of word of mouth. I know how it all works.

a reply to: SuperFrog

No, they had the hallmarks of cult. They kept their members isolated from others and things like that.

a reply to: Annee

So are they promoting by name, only using dog whistle so that the members know without them using the name, or is it the members who are talking about it among themselves which is no different than you talking with coworkers about how awesome Hillary (or Bernie) is at work?

Make up your mind.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ngchunter

Actually it's illegal for preachers to promote or campaign for candidates from the pulpit.

Yes, I know that. And many in recent years have been promoting specific candidates by name.

That isn't what you said a minute ago. You said, "it is illegal for preachers to promote politics from the pulpit." That is false. That's the IRS saying it's false, not just me.

And carefully chosen words lets you know exactly which candidate without mentioning names.

Oh and now the truth comes out, you want to regulate free speech in the pulpit which does not actually promote specific candidates by name by claiming it "promotes specific candidates by name without mentioning names. " Those are your words, that's what you just said. I see right through you. I stand against you, I will fight to the death for my first amendment rights.

originally posted by: jimmyx
atheism is looking pretty sane right now.....of course that takes critical-thinking skills, logic, and reason, rather than belief in a mythical being....

Well at least you have Jim Jones, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mussolini all on your side...

Critical-thinking skills?

I think not...

Atheists are more fanatical than any religious cult.

"Athesim has produced FIVE Atheist states, all bloody tyrannies killing over 40,000,000 people during the 20th Century Atheist holocaust!" Rewriting History and Making Facts Disappear (link is dead)

"...secular ideologies were responsible for the murder of 100 million innocent people during the last century." Source

Atheist Communist regimes, meanwhile, have killed over 100 million of their own people (and that's a conservative number) in just the last 100 years. Whenever atheism has been installed as the Official State Religion, the state in question has always given itself permission to do unspeakable things. Always. When God is not, as Dostoyevsky wrote, anything is permitted.

Link

"And the much greater persecution of priests and believers in 20th Century Atheist tyrannies clearly demonstrates the murderous anti-theism of Atheists." "Then you explain why they kill people in such vastly greater numbers than any religion EVER HAS in all of history!?"

• Russian Civil War (1917-22): 7 to 10 million
• Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 million
• People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 44 to 72 million

Atheists kill vastly greater numbers than any religion EVER

a reply to: ketsuko

maybe I am wrong, but I believe the leonards lived in another town even...the neighbors knew their kids because some of them said how well behaved they were in one interview...
how is that keeping them isolated? I am not saying that they aren't a cult, but, I don't believe you can say that they are either. How do you define a "cult"? Is it all those non-denominational churches out there? Just the ones that screw up royally like this church appears to have? Heck, you read the posts here on ATS and you can get the feeling that everyone's religion is a cult in someone else's view. Catholics?? Cults... LDS? Cults... Pentecostal? Cults.... Dominists? CULTS!!!
So what churches aren't cults? Methodists? Maybe, they seem to be pretty much mainstream really. Baptists? well, you'd think so, but then I ran into this one:



This is the website for this school....
www.abundantlifeacademy.com...

Sure they didn't beat the kids to death or anything, but well, they DID abuse them. On it's website it clearly states:

" We are a non-denominational Christian boarding school presenting the Word of God without compromise. "

www.abundantlifeacademy.com...
If you take some time looking at their site, you really don't see anything cultish within their sales pitch. And yet they screwed up and were shut down.

wtvr.com...

so, were they a cult? or did they just terribly screw up, or maybe broke a few laws for a profit?
I can point to other instances.....one concerning a baptist church. But, my point is that it's just too easy to point to every instance and say that it was just a cult... you can say that they really weren't christian at all and just out to make a few bucks, you can say that they are christians who have strayed off course and are following faulty believes, heck you can even entertain the idea that their beliefs are spot on....
but you can't proclaim them all cults.

Frankly, I think religious zealotry is a severe form of mental illness. I have no idea what label to apply. That is for the professionals.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Catholics wiped out entire cultures. I think that a much more egregious offense.

a reply to: dawnstar

You can isolate people through psychological control. Get into a clannish/cliquish style of congregation with a charismatic leader. I just remember reading about the weird things going on with the group on MSN after this story broke.

It isn't the beating itself that is cultish so much as the motive.

www.nytimes.com...

Here's a piece on it by the Times. Then read these hallmarks of cults.

carm.org...

And you tell me what Word of Life had become.

a reply to: ketsuko

They kept their members isolated from others and things like that.

Like home-schooling?

You may be in a cult if:

1. Opposing critical thinking

2. Isolating members and penalizing them for leaving

3. Emphasizing special doctrines outside scripture

4. Seeking inappropriate loyalty to their leaders

5. Dishonoring the family unit

6. Crossing Biblical boundaries of behavior (versus sexual purity and personal ownership)

7. Separation from the Church

Does your "religion" want you to research and study ONLY their literature and use ONLY their recommended sources?

Does your "religion" label you an apostate if you decide to leave their brand of spiritual beliefs, and then shun you and encourage family and friends to shun you as well?

Do they have their own brand of scriptural interpretation and demand that you accept it or leave...no discussion?

Do they demand you give the leaders of their organization exceptional loyalty over and above everything else, and accept their instructions as coming from God himself, even in matters outside scriptural context?

Do they encourage you to separate yourself from other family members if they are unbelievers or if they have decided to leave the religion/cult?

Does it sometimes feel like you are brainwashed or programmed to not question their teachings and are you made to feel guilty when you do so?

You may belong to a cult and not even know it.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: ketsuko

They kept their members isolated from others and things like that.

Like home-schooling?

If you want to come after parents who homeschool then you really do court open civil war.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Actually, they weren't homeschooling. They had a church in their school for their congregants. You'd know that if you read the NYT piece.

a reply to: ketsuko

ya, about the motive, I've hinted at it a few times without any bites, so I will spell out my theory.

you have primarily two families involved in this- the leonards and the irvings.
the irvings are the founders of this churches but moved for a time to I believe the rochester area and were involved in a different church. while they were gone, the leonards took over. although, at least in one of the family, maybe both, these are the kids and husband's/wives of these kids were are talking about now. then, the irvings came back and took back the church....

okay, so could we possibly have had a challenge to leadership, could a portion of the congregation have felt that the leonards would have been better suited? could the leonards have openly questioned the leadership? could lies have been made up to discredit the leonards in order to preserve the irving's power? could these two kids have just been completely innocent of any wrongdoing (in anyone's eyes, even the most insane religious wacko who thought it was better to be dead than to be outside of the church) and have just been the victims of a power struggle that got way out of hand?

in any case, both of these families, I would consider to have been church leaders and long time very active members, and it's really odd that they would both be involved in this I think.

originally posted by: 123143
Catholics wiped out entire cultures. I think that a much more egregious offense.

You're right...

The Roman Catholic Church has to be the largest cult in the history of the world.

But what very few realize is that Catholicism and atheism both share the same source.

The same is true of Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Mormons, etc.