Why is Jesus a Conservative?

a reply to: ketsuko

That's tough. I'll be the first to say it and even admit I don't like that conclusion, but that's where my interpretation of what Jesus did say leads me.

You don't like the conclusion?

:-)

What's not to like? Jesus says

How conflicted you must feel - but in the end a believer has got to do what a believer has got to do...

Unless their gut leads them to another conclusion. I don't think what Jesus preaches is all that confusing frankly

Maybe you should trust your instincts

originally posted by: Antidisestablishment
Hey you Bible Bashers!
Do you have an answer to me question.
I have been reading the New Testament, and I really can't find any evidence that the beloved Jesus you so admire would have ever voted for Bush or Donald Trump. In fact, I don't even belive he was homophobic.
In fact, I don't think he was misogynistic or a gay hater.
Can you prove me wrong by posting scriptures that support capitalism and slavery which actually came from Jesus's mouth?
I think the early disciples showed more left wing leanings tbh.

So you're reading the new testament for the first time and think you understand it better than those who have studied it for most of their lives?

The truth is Christ didn't care for politics nor politicians. He didn't provide his guidance to tell you who you should vote for.

You've filtered a lot of the ideas presented in the bible through a lens to fit your political paradigm. For example, you bemoan capitalism as evil and mean, yet capitalism is simply a free market system. It does not require the participants in that market be ruthless or callous to one another.

Christ, like republicans, doesn't agree with slavery. Where you go the idea either of those parties supported it is really telling of your lack of perspective.

The early disciples are left leaning? Can you show me a left leaning politician saying as Paul said: "He who does not work, shall not eat." (Thessalonians, 3:10) seems like it pretty well supports the ideas enshrined in the capitalist system.

As for the "Gay hating" comments in your post. Christians don't hate gays, just like they don't hate any other sinner. They hate the sin. We are all God's children with divine potential, but we have to live righteously and attempt to correct our sinful nature to live up to that potential (but we all need the grace of god to reach our potential).

Anyway, I probably shouldn't have even responded to your post because you don't have a clue (likely because you don't want to have a clue) and nothing I say will change your mind. But oh well, I tried.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: neo96
Charity is a Christian value unlike it's counter part of entitlement.

One is done by FREE will, and done by oneself instead of using bold face authoritarianism, and outsource the betterment of their fellow man to the STATE.

Back to conservative bashing.

Where Jesus would just turn the other cheek.

Luke 12:22-34 (New International Version)

22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear.

23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes.

24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!

25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[a]?

26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.

28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith!

29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it.

30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them.

31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Sounds like he was ordering them to sell their possessions & give to the poor, not asking them to volunteer it as you said.

Yet he clearly ordered them to directly sell their possessions and give them to the poor. Not to give their possessions to the government and have them give the proceeds to the poor.

originally posted by: TheChrome
Jesus wasn't a conservative, neither was he liberal, he was a moderate. If you go by the bible, his teachings will piss off both liberals and conservatives, and yet he was balanced.

yep he was following the ancient egyptian teaching of balance, because honestly, people are much too complex to be all one way or another. it's just the people swinging the pendulum that pretend the extremes are the whole story.

Better question is why do some people make Jesus a poltical figure?

He said he was the Son of Man and the Messiah,as well as the only truth and to follow Him.Also said He is the way to the Father.

It is common sense christians have always been in government bodies as well as atheist or muslims,jews etc.

originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: Antidisestablishment
Please edit your post title. Why is Jesus a Conservative. IS, IS. It should read "why WAS Jesus a Conservative" as in "was" past tense as he is dead. Or so they tell me.

that's why Bill Mahar says the religious conservative right live in their own bubble of truth, history, and morality.

originally posted by: Dfairlite

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: neo96
Charity is a Christian value unlike it's counter part of entitlement.

One is done by FREE will, and done by oneself instead of using bold face authoritarianism, and outsource the betterment of their fellow man to the STATE.

Back to conservative bashing.

Where Jesus would just turn the other cheek.

Luke 12:22-34 (New International Version)

22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear.

23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes.

24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!

25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[a]?

26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.

28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith!

29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it.

30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them.

31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Sounds like he was ordering them to sell their possessions & give to the poor, not asking them to volunteer it as you said.

Yet he clearly ordered them to directly sell their possessions and give them to the poor. Not to give their possessions to the government and have them give the proceeds to the poor.

Huh? He didn't clarify who to sell them to. Either way, you agree that his followers are clearly ordered to sell their possessions & give that money to the poor, right?

The post I was responding too claimed charity was up to a person's free will, which clearly it isn't. It was a clear order. That's the point we were arguing. So you're agreeing with me that he ordered them to do it and didn't say it was up to their free will to do it, right?

a reply to: ketsuko

Jesus did not teach against those things explicitly, but he did define marriage as God defined it - man and woman - and he did preach against sexual immorality which includes sex outside of marriage. Unfortunately for gays, they fall forever outside on those counts. They do not fulfill the definition of a marriage as defined by God and reiterated by Jesus, and therefore, any sexual activity a gay couple will have is in the category of sexual immorality.

Glad you brought this up, and not me. I thought about it, and decided it wasn't worth the further debate.

originally posted by: Reflection
a reply to: vethumanbeing

I never said Ayn Rand is a better option.

And I disagree that they are seperate, non-relevant beliefs. Ayn Rands philosophy assumes that everyone is basically selfish and even acts that we think of as altruistic are really people wanting something back for themselves in some way whether tangible or intangible. Her philosophy was more than just free market economics. It has to do with how to treat people, how to vote, what to support with your wallet, what to consider sacred, what to exploit and what to conserve are certainly more than just economic decisions. They're moral decisions.

You mean everyone within a 'Carnegie or Vanderbilt, Astor, Morgan, Warren Buffet' identification is selfish. Big business (capitalism) was the child form for Rand's Objectivism. Why are they separate? Altruistic sensibility equates to philanthropy (as you reap/manipulate you have to give back to those you plundered pillaged).

a reply to: Antidisestablishment

Jesus did not engage in political discourse as that would have detracted from his message, except perhaps, render unto Caesar what is Caesars. This of course begs, what is Caesars? As in most things it is your own answer that is most important and not the Dogma of the Karma.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

If you plunder pillage it is all yours. Cause the pillaged and plundered are parasites dragging down the "great" man.
We plunder pillagers can admit of no evil as that would aggravate our narcissistic injury, that drove us to acquire and control as to cover up our weakness and stifle dissent, opposition, and loving feedback. The emperor has no clothes, just ask Bernie.

originally posted by: cryptic0void
a reply to: Antidisestablishment

Jesus did not engage in political discourse as that would have detracted from his message, except perhaps, render unto Caesar what is Caesars. This of course begs, what is Caesars? As in most things it is your own answer that is most important and not the Dogma of the Karma.

Why would this person *Jesus* do such a thing (he was more a Ghandi type; fairness in wealth distribution) it was 300 years later when Paul defined (inserted an a edited "belief system") based upon a Christianity HE INVENTED. Jesus was not a Christian; he was an Essene that purported/represented this base idea form, (EQUALITY IS REPRESENTED BY ALL SPECIE APPARENT) as we exist so are/FAR.

a reply to: Antidisestablishment

You may be right that our lord was liberal in his time, but he lived by the Ten Commandments. I would think you would have a difficult time convincing anyone that the Ten Commandments are anything but conservative. Science believed that homosexuality was a mental disorder, a new way of thinking at the time, because the church had believed that mental disorders were demonic possessions. Christ cast out a few demons in his time.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

You wrote: QUOTE "Jesus wasn't a conservative. Jesus wasn't a liberal. Jesus was a savior. He was (and is) above politics." UNQUOTE

I think you would have to understand one basic fact regarding "politics and religion" in 1st century Judaea - there WAS NO SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE - all religious acts were political acts in Palestine and all political acts were in some way religious acts...especially with R. Yehoshua bar Yosef...the language of Holy War is always close to his perspective on the world in which he lived...

You would have to back up your jejune and naïve statements quoted above with some heavy duty facts that can be gleaned from the mangled texts of the Greek canonical Gospel material; permit me to assist you in understanding the text in front of you...

NB:a close reading of the text (such as have come down to us in Greek) show us a HIGHLY POLITICAL figure who was dancing between the political raindrops as it were his whole life...just as the ruling Saduccean temple priestly class who had to play it safe with Rome in order to remain in power....

Here are some facts to consider:

l. R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir ("Jesus") was born from the line of David (being Galilean of the tribe of Judah) a fact which makes him HIGHLY political even before he was born (even though the 1st gospel and the 3rd canonical Greek Gospel show different genealogies, both agree that he was Daviddic, as did the author of Hebrews 7:14 ("For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah...") - and one could say since 6CE (the Galilean revolt resulting in hundreds of crucifixions) Galilee ('ha gilgal hagoyim = 'circle of Gentiles") being a political football and hotbed of insurrection and sedition against the status quo politically...

2. There are touchy undercurrents throughout both the "deeds" and the 'parables' in the gospel traditions which are highly charged politically

(e.g. Pharasim: 'Herod seeks to kill you, go somewhere else...Jesus: Tell that cowering Jackal that I perform signs today and tomorrow and the next day..." A jackal is a cowering animal in this case, the image is one of a n occupied power being cowed by the Occupying power, in this case Rome - a highly politically charged statement.

3. The so-called Cleansing of the Temple was an extreme example of something that was both religious and political at the same time - and moreover occurs in ALL FOUR GREEK CANONICAL GOSPELS, so the criterion of embarrassment keeps this periscope into historical focus.
See Mark 11:15–19, 11:27–33, Matthew 21:12–17, 21:23–27 and Luke 19:45–48, 20:1–8 and John 2:13–16

e.g. "And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade...!"

4. The donkey ride (cf: the white she-ass of Solomon) into Jerusalem on a colt was a political act of defiance against Rome ("Behold thy king cometh unto thee" from Zechariah 9:9

see Matthew 21:1-11, Mark 11:1-11, Luke 19:28-44 and John 12:12-19, as Jesus descends from the Mount of Olives towards Jerusalem the crowds lay their clothes on the ground to welcome a highly political Jesus as he enters the city..

"Hosanna to the Son of David, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the [Most HIgh] !" &tc.

Matthew 21 (despite two animals in Matthew's version being ridden simultaneously) - "All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your King comes to you, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."

5. Even the encampment on the mount of Olives had political and religious 'holy war' overtones in the prophets

Zechariah 14:1-5
"Then shall the Lord go forth and fight against the Gentiles, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east..."

6. His execution for political sedition against the state (breach of Lex Maiestatis, the so-called No King but Caesar law) was by crucifixion, a punishment specifically designed for POLITICAL prisoners; a religious execution would have been stoning or beheading or being led to a cliff and thrown over etc.

I could list a dozen or so highly charged political aspects to the words placed into the mouth of R. Yeshoshua in the Greek canonical gospels in several postings if you need more clarification on that.. In the meantime, check out a book released a few years ago entitled, ZEALOT: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth by Dr. Reza Aslan - his style is a little novelistic but he gets his points across as to just how political this man was in fact...

see Mark 10:37 / Matthew 20:21

where the mother of Yakkov/James and Yohanon/John, wife of Zavdai comes to Jesus and asks if her sons could be placed at the right and the left of him when he comes into his kingdom...

Matt 20:2 'What is your request?" he asked. She replied, "In your Kingdom, please let my two sons sit in places of honor next to you, one on your right and the other on your left."

These are political not particularly religious appointments after the 'new government' is formed...('and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor...the Prince of Peace..."

I'll continue with the list of political acts of the good Rebbe in future postings if it will help you see what the text is actually saying...especially if you read a little between the lines...

a reply to: cryptic0void

If I said you are wrong, would you disagree? I might just say it, like the wind blowing the clouds in the sky.
Then who is the listener any such what?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Wolfenz
WHOA I thought Angels were Hermaphrodites

Yeah? I thought they were figments of people's imaginations.

Yeah

Their Angel

My Elohim,

Elyon == Alien like Superman !! Kal EL..

yup those from not of this Earth ..

just a different perspective ..

figment of their Imagination : Could very well be ...

a lot of Eating/Burning different Herbs and Drinking Spoiled Fruits
back in the day ... in Pagan Rituals way before the christian Era!

I see Angels ! in the Blurred Drunken Vision of the Hebrew..

Dam you Noah and your Vinyard!


Moses you Too! with that talking Fiery Bush

'Moses was high on hallucinogenic drug when he received Ten Commandments,' claims top academic

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High of the beholder? Moses and the burning bush. The acacia tree, frequently mentioned in the Bible, contains one of the most psychedelic substances known to man Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

originally posted by: cryptic0void
a reply to: cryptic0void

If I said you are wrong, would you disagree? I might just say it, like the wind blowing the clouds in the sky.
Then who is the listener any such what?

So, you disagree with yourself and are having a problem with yourself as (both described) the discloser proponent and listener/audience?

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Sounds plausible enough, that's life, ennit

originally posted by: cryptic0void
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Sounds plausible enough, that's life, ennit

If you don't believe it now you will later; after this life force is consumed (aftermath) will be revealed; did you succeed in total your contract or at least some of your contract/content table?

a reply to: Wolfenz

I was referring to more of a delusional and less of a stoner sort of way.