Tamir Rice shooting was 'reasonable,' two experts conclude

CNN link

Well, since the "experts" agree, I guess there is no arguing.



(That's not the entire video btw, just a quick one I grabbed from youtube. Search for yourself if you so desire)

Unbelievable!

How in the HELL is this being considered "justified"....or "reasonable"? Seriously?

I don't have words and this OP is going to be short because of it.

"There can be no doubt that Rice's death was tragic and, indeed, when one considers his age, heartbreaking," Sims writes in his report. "However, for all of the reasons discussed herein, I conclude that Officer Loehmann's belief that Rice posed a threat of serious physical harm or death was objectively reasonable as was his response to that perceived threat."

And of course, the old favorite is pulled out. The officer "feared for his life"....how very f'n typical.
How did the officer possibly conclude all the above in the, what?....3 seconds it took him to fling open his door and murder Tamir?

Maybe a change in tactics, in regards to calls about "armed individuals" is in order.....You know, like not rolling up within feet of the person that supposedly has the gun. (Remember as well, they had been told by the guy that called 911 that the gun was most likely a toy.)

May this murderous pos rot in hell!

I can see how they justify it. I mean the kid had a toy which looks basically like a real firearm. So, if I were a cop pulling up to that, yeah...I wouldn't screw around.

That said...I would also not pull my car up right beside ANY suspect I was about to contact. Give SOME distance and then approach them with caution, obviously. I'm not even trained as a cop, that's just basic logic for survival.

So are they really justified in shooting the kid? Well if you aren't asking the right questions, then yes, they are.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

That said...I would also not pull my car up right beside ANY suspect I was about to contact. Give SOME distance and then approach them with caution, obviously. I'm not even trained as a cop, that's just basic logic for survival.

Exactly!
Who in their right mind rolls up on a [supposed] armed subject like those two idiots?

...as usual, shoot first, ask questions after the corpse turns cold.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

They forced the issue by roaring up on the kid instead of approaching within bull horn distance first and saying something like, "This the police, drop your weapon and…"

God forbid, our impatient bravado is that short sighted.

a reply to: Jakal26

This has happened before with toy guns. It's the reason you can't buy realistic looking ones anymore...

Was the shooting justified ? No of course not but on the other side of that statement, I can understand why the kid was shot. When I was growing up I had a nice collection of nerf/cap guns and my mother always warned me to NEVER point them at the police for this exact reason... They could shoot me...

a reply to: TheMainEvent

Obviously....

However, that isn't my point.
To me, the way they approached the situation (rolling right up on the kid, rather than setting up a position further away and assessing the situation first) is what got this kid killed. Gung ho. Hell, he was practically shooting before he exited the car. The blame for pulling the trigger ultimately falls on him, but the driver is responsible for putting him in that situation as well.

VERY poor tactic. And they should be held accountable...but alas, in the police state, "the man" is always right and their actions (more often than not) are always justified by their counterparts.

Truly sickening and f'n scandalous!

No. No. No.
The cops put themselves in danger, by rolling up right next to him. If he had had a real gun, he could have taken out the officer on the passenger side before he could open his door. I would never put myself that close to someone I thought was dangerous and leave myself or partner open to fire while I was vulnerable.There was no one else there, so why did they think they had to be right on top of him? They could have stopped 50 ft away and told him to drop the weapon and get on the ground. But, in true cowboy style of policing, they rush in, guns a blazin' before they know exactly what's going on.

a reply to: DAVID64

De-escalation of any given situation seems a thing of the past in todays' police state USA.
And they wonder why many of us get so nervous when they're around. (Not really, they just see those that get nervous as "guilty" of something....it must be something because, "I was trained and taught that those that are nervous about my presence are a clear and present danger".....or something to that effect)

a reply to: Jakal26

Think about it: You are a cop on patrol. You are informed of a person at a park with a gun. You pull up, scanning the park and discover that you have stopped within a few feet of a person holding a gun. How do you react? In this instance the cop did his duty rather than taking evasive action which in hindsight would have saved the kid's life and obviously removed himself from the immediate danger of the "gunman."

The cop didn't knowingly do anything wrong. Sadly, the kid didn't either.

a reply to: Aliensun

You pull up, scanning the park and discover that you have stopped within a few feet of a person holding a gun.

Oh hell then. When you put it like that.
Pretty sure they knew he was in that shed and pretty sure there was intention on rolling up on him. The video speaks for itself, no matter how you or anyone else attempts to spin it.

But thanks for playing.

Btw....isn't "unknowingly" causing loss of life at least worthy of a involuntary manslaughter charge?

a reply to: Jakal26

If this is reasonable, then by the same rationale pre-emptively neutralizing known threats by any means necessary is reasonable.

The bar for reasonable is low and getting lower in the US. In fact the term reasonable is being weaponized.

SWAT raids in support of mandatory vaccinations is coming. CPS stealing children etc. Every person should understand where they draw the line. In any case, you need to arm up now if you plan on sticking around.

The theater of elections could come to an abrupt end and I'm sure it will involve a massive false flag attack on citizens by the USG. Maybe it will come just before the vote on the TPP/TISA? Get ready.

a reply to: Jakal26

How did the officer possibly conclude all the above in the, what?....3 seconds it took him to fling open his door and murder Tamir?

As I understand it, it was more like 2 seconds. I can't even see how that could be considered enough time to fully evaluate the situation before resorting to deadly force.

From some of the things that I've read, the LEOs claimed he was reaching into his waistband and feared he was going for the reported weapon. Though it's not clear from this video, I think he could just as well have been putting his hands in his pockets. Children will sometimes do this demurely when they are about to be chastised.

And, though it's reported that the toy gun didn't have the orange tip that would indicate its benign nature, it appears to me that the LEO didn't even have the time to determine whether it was a real weapon or not. Did the police officer actually see the weapon, or was he going solely by the rather sketchy report provided by his dispatcher?

I'm also curious as to whether there is any video and audio from the police cruiser. That would help to put some things into context; including the exact nature of the dispatcher report, and what the LEOs were seeing as they pulled up to the scene.

This is just another reason to require all law enforcement to wear body cams. When there is very limited information about what has gone down during an encounter, as is the case here, it is difficult for the public to come to any consensus regarding the guilt or innocence of either the alleged perpetrator or the law enforcement officer.

Now, for the record, I usually give great deference to law enforcement. I think they generally try to do the best they can to protect the public. But after I looked at this video, I came to the conclusion that this was an execution; plain and simple.

-dex

A truly tragic situation, but what bothers me is the pretty clear case of bad parenting. Why the heck does a 12 year old have a realistic looking pellet gun in his waist, and why the hell did he think it would be wise to reach for it.

Parents should have been beating into his head that guns are not toys, do NOT go in your waistband, and NEVER EVER play with one around a cop.

originally posted by: Vector99
A truly tragic situation, but what bothers me is the pretty clear case of bad parenting. Why the heck does a 12 year old have a realistic looking pellet gun in his waist, and why the hell did he think it would be wise to reach for it.

Parents should have been beating into his head that guns are not toys, do NOT go in your waistband, and NEVER EVER play with one around a cop.

Your response is wrong. It is not the child's fault and all children can do silly things.

The adults here are the Police and they managed to gun down an innocent child within so short a time frame that they could not have used any judgement at all.

The child was dead 2 seconds after they arrived.

It is truly sickening!

P

a reply to: Jakal26

Of course "don't point toy guns at the cops" isn't your point... it eviscerates this argument completely and renders the rest of the argument into little more than emotional histrionics.

Bottom line here, don't point guns (real, toy, etc) at the police and then feign shock when you get shot for it. Seems pretty common sense and, since I've never pointed a gun at a cop and am alive right now, it seems to be pretty effective.

Those kind of people shouldn't be police officers. Why on earth would you drive right up to a KID hold what looks to be a weapon, instead of using a bullhorn or PA system to tell the KID to drop it while staying at a safe distance. Only reason to drive up that close is if you was going to tackle the kid instead of using lethal force.

originally posted by: Aliensun

Think about it: You are a cop on patrol. You are informed of a person at a park with a gun. You pull up, scanning the park and discover that you have stopped within a few feet of a person holding a gun. How do you react? In this instance the cop did his duty rather than taking evasive action which in hindsight would have saved the kid's life and obviously removed himself from the immediate danger of the "gunman."

The cop didn't knowingly do anything wrong. Sadly, the kid didn't either.

I have a couple of issues with your scenario...

1. The cops knew where they were going and to who. The fact that they didn't stop 50 feet more away led to extreme negligence. If they gave it a little distance they could have talked instead of shooting.

2. 2 seconds, or less. That tells me that the shooting was reasonable only if we are talking ZERO level of assume risk here. They are cops they need to assume at least a small amount of risk before they shoot. If I assumed zero risk in Afghanistan/Iraq I would be shooting everyone in sight and go to jail very quickly, and those are places where people really want to kill you.

3. It was a kid, one who didn't shoot at anyone, also even if they didn't know that yet it is not illegal to have a gun, and unless the kid pulled it and pointed it at them then they had no right to assume he was trying to shoot them. Once again, no crime committed, so if I was sitting there cleaning a real gun does that give the cops the right to shoot me just because they saw the gun?

originally posted by: Vector99
A truly tragic situation, but what bothers me is the pretty clear case of bad parenting. Why the heck does a 12 year old have a realistic looking pellet gun in his waist, and why the hell did he think it would be wise to reach for it.

Parents should have been beating into his head that guns are not toys, do NOT go in your waistband, and NEVER EVER play with one around a cop.

Who knows, he was a kid. Most likely he was going to give it to them, but we can't even say that since all he did was grab his shirt as he was shot. Air Soft guns are all over the place and one would think the cops would at least understand that a kid most likely has a toy gun over a real one.

But even if it was real, he had about as much time just to flinch before he was shot with 2 seconds or less to do anything. Do you know how hard it is to draw and shoot in 2 seconds? That cop didn't see crap and was drawing to shoot in an instant no matter what the kid did. I would bet if the kid put both hands in the air he would have been shot still before they were half way up.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

Bottom line here, don't point guns (real, toy, etc) at the police and then feign shock when you get shot for it. Seems pretty common sense and, since I've never pointed a gun at a cop and am alive right now, it seems to be pretty effective.

I don't think he had it in his hand, did he? So kind of hard to point it, or is lifting your shirt the same thing as pointing a gun? There is another shooting of some guy who lifts his shirt to show he was not carrying and was shot due to that action too. I don't know, is that is typical move in gangland?

This was a tragic case.

Tamir obviously shouldn't have been playing with a realistic toy gun in a park like that as it is just asking to get shot. These are different times. There is a reason those guns are supposed to have the orange tip because these accidents happen all the time.

On the other hand, it does appear the cops over reacted. However, they also weren't given all the information either. While the person who called in the request for police clearly said that it looks like a young boy with a toy gun, that information apparently was not relayed through dispatch. The cops may not have had a clear picture of who they were driving up on.

Tragic accidents happen. Anyone to try to claim this was some sort of intentional shooting is clearly not objectively looking at all the facts of the case.

The larger issue we have is why cops are so on edge and afraid to try to deescalate situations with other methods. It does seem police are often times too quick to draw their weapons in situations.