What if you are possessed, and possessing?

a reply to: Bluesma

You misunderstood me somewhat. I brought that spartan suggestion from my own realm of experience.
My comments were directed at "most people" who are woefully domesticated.

I don't fit into the modern world. I would have been quite happy for a lifetime in the woods, with my horse, gun, axe and dog.

To your suggestion of popping into a time or place to witness how things must have really been, I can imagine a lot of that, maybe we would be surprised to find however, that history was written to cover the reality up in some cases.

That would be a surprise, wouldn't it? You get there to find the truth had been altered by the powers that be , just like they are today?

Having said that, I would love to go back to anytime before pollution and see how blue the sky, how colored the sunsets, how clear the stars, the taste of pure water from streams and the food… like an egg, an ear of corn, without preservatives, genetic engineering and pesticides. No jet contrails, smog, cancer or city noise.

I realize we can get some of these things toady, so can you get the feel of sailing on the ocean, like vikings did. Sailing hasn't changed that much like horses to automobiles have.

a reply to: intrptr

So you know what I mean... see, I suspect that much of peoples fascination with doom porn is born of this deep desire to get in touch with the physical senses and material world again. That you and I aren't as "different" as we think! Deep down, experiencing this earthy challenge calls to us all. A sign of these times, and why comfort (that which the ego searches) is not necessarily what all of our being searches.... that "I" (eye) could be searching experience of the senses, and the orgasmic moments where inspiration happens, because of necessity.

a reply to: Bluesma

Yep, In a world where everything is already provided, people have few needs or any need to innovate. Just consume at will. That doesn't make us happier, in fact it brings us to this place where nothing satisfies.

We have everything and still we aren't happy.

So we long to be someone, somewhere else. And no matter where we manage to go, its still here.

As a return to thread premise, I most of the time amazed by this world we have wrought. The technology, the ability to construct and destroy on a massive scale. Most of this awesome power is wielded by adult children it seems, bashing about like kids in a sandbox, drawing lines, making castles of sand and wrecking them with abandon.

Others may be familiarized and desensitized, I never will be. I will always tremble at this complex construct, we are way out of bounds as a species, a return to simpler times won't be had by intent or chance, either. It will be of our own over doing.

a reply to: Bluesma

This is why I love ATS, Bravo to a figurative scenario that seems to nudge towards something many of us have encountered in our thought processes. Hell to even think that we can think and especially think about things in such a manner is miracle in itself. The logic side of our existence makes sense for the sake of making sense but creativity is something that words lack to describe definitively because that is what creation can be in its very essence . The random spontaneity of physical animation with the capacity of some sort of awareness limited to the extent of its own experience and limitations attests that imagination is something not of this world

a reply to: Bluesma

It sounds like the EXISTENCE of a time lord, Bluesma...

Very interesting perception

NAMASTE*******

a reply to: Bluesma

Would that also involve non terrestrial vessels as well, 1 wonders...

originally posted by: Bluesma


You could just be the "eyes" observing the experience, carried around safely in a vehicle that is programmed to survive effectively.
Wouldn't that be cool?

Here you have written that you are just the eyes observing the experience. You could be observing a compassionate person (or a mean person) living in, say, Egypt, then that is what would be observed. As the 'eyes' you would have no control over what appears - including the feelings and thoughts of the vehicle (person).
However, because there is such a strong belief that you have control - you still think that being just the eyes you would somehow be able to control other things.
If you are just the observing presence, you would only be able to observe.

Or is that not what you meant by 'you are just the eyes observing'?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

Or is that not what you meant by 'you are just the eyes observing'?

I mean a non-judgmental passenger.
That you personally have no expectations or desires,
No judgment of good or bad.

But in this sense, from the point of view of the body's consciousness,
You are it's soul- you are the closest thing to divinity- to something that transcend its self, it's form, it's perspective.
So when it cries out to the divine and seeks aid, when it desperately desires to change experiences, but it's programs are getting in the way,
There is only you that can hear and respond to that.
You can choose to ignore it and remain silent and inactive, of course, but if you decide to engage, then guidance through intuition can be attempted.

I did not suggest you have control- I specifically wrote that you may find it difficult, if not impossible, to break through the program and have an influence. But it is not impossible in all cases. Those vehicles who seek to hear and communicate with the Divine might be receptive.

As far as control over the exterior world surrounding the vehicle, a better term would be "influence". A body which responds to an event or another in one way will provoke a different reaction than responding another way would. In each moment, in face of each other, there are limits to those potentials- you can't influence a tiger to act like a butterfly. But within the potential behaviors of tigers, there are still a collection of behaviors that they may produce. The tiger can be intimidated and flee, or it can feel offensive and attack- your behavior when faced with it can influence which potential arises. The soul, through intuition, can nudge the body towards one behavior or another, in accordance with what it desires to experience most, and given that the body is receptive.

originally posted by: Bluesma

I did not suggest you have control- I specifically wrote that you may find it difficult, if not impossible, to break through the program and have an influence. But it is not impossible in all cases.
As far as control over the exterior world surrounding the vehicle, a better term would be "influence".

You have suggested that control is possible.
In the OP, do you go back to experience what it was like (be just eyes) or are you actually going back with the idea that you can influence 'things'?

Maybe the idea of no control is just too scary to even contemplate being 'just the seeing' of what is happening.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: Bluesma

I did not suggest you have control- I specifically wrote that you may find it difficult, if not impossible, to break through the program and have an influence. But it is not impossible in all cases.
As far as control over the exterior world surrounding the vehicle, a better term would be "influence".

You have suggested that control is possible.
In the OP, do you go back to experience what it was like (be just eyes) or are you actually going back with the idea that you can influence 'things'?

You seem to have a problem differenciating the concepts of "control" and "influence".
You are unable to conceptualize anything in between total power and total powerlessness? Domination and submission? Passivity and aggressivity?

In the realm of matter, time and space, there emerges a reality of "self" and "other"- or separated objects. This opens the door to the possibility of co-creation, cooperation, power with limitations existing precisely because there is this "other" or not "I" (eye).

That is the draw and interest in projecting into that realm- not just to observe and experience "other" but to experience the interplay of relation.

It is a realm of relativity, only possible because of the separation.

Once you project into this particular realm of existence, there is relativity- between the form/vehicle you use, and the world which surrounds it, between it and the other realms of existence, and even, between it and your spark of consciousness.

There is relativity to potential- potentials become limited relative to the entity, to the situations. In each moment there are potentials for the next moment existing- they are limited, but still plural.

Part of observing is experiencing the way each I (eye) impacts and co-creates what arises. The form you have projected into has it's program, which is engineered and evolved to move in that environment and reality- as such, it doesn't usually come with an ability to perceive realities other than this one.

So it is prone to thinking it's automatic reflex system is all there is that can interact with the "not I", "other" or "exterior world".

It is programmed to focus on things such as domination, submission, victimization and tyranny, powerful and powerless, good and bad, and you can certainly choose to just experience and observe that.

Except that in doing so, you have entered an awareness of separation and relativity here, of "observer" and "observed".
Which opens the door to the possibility of experiencing interaction, relation, cooperation and co-creation which is born of this "observer" and "observed".

Choose to reject that opportunity for joyful creation. My spark is quite drawn to the potential for creativity that is made possible in a relative universe! It cannot help but bring other potentials into arising that transcend the good/bad, powerful/powerless, dominated/submitted, victim/tyrant paradigm.
Simply by observing, it's nature impacts and influences. This vehicle senses it's presence and becomes aware- there is MORE. The potentials are more numerous and expand beyond the polarization within it's programming.
Desire to experience this expansion arises from that awareness.

An earthly metaphor-
You decide to go for a walk in the forest, to observe and experience the nature there.
You think you are just observing what is arising there, the interplay of the plants, animals, air, water, light and dark.

Except that, your presence impacts that environment, always! It cannot be otherwise! Your feet press the ground and the leaves and insects there, your leg touches a light branch, and some of it's leaves or seed are shaken to the ground, your form moving below changes the behavior of the squirrels watching from the trees above, it makes the boar or deer choose a different path, or have other emotional/chemical state in their body when they smell, hear or see you.

Conscious awareness present cannot have no impact at all, even if it tries. Even if the eye is staying silent in it's observation, the vehicle will subtly sense it's presence, and that has an impact on it. Awareness stirs awareness. One of the very high potentials of these "observing" adventures is the vehicle (the observed) starts to an awakening awareness of more potential than this reality, than the brute polarization.
It will begin to desire to uncover and experience more of that.

Sense of Divine, sacred, transcendent is born in that vehicle because of your presence.
It will try to understand that sense, and it's relation at first using it's own limited programs -
there is a Good and Bad (the transcendent is "good" and the material is "bad"),
powerful and powerless (the transcendent is powerful, the material powerless)...

It will search to engage in relation through it's usual concepts-
The material should submit to the transcendent completely, and be dominated.


At this point in the vehicles struggle to comprehend the "more", all the while stuck within what it already knows, turning in circles in it's own cage of programming,
The opportunity arises for you to let your influence be felt and let them discover what the "more" is beyond those earthly concepts.


You can be the God that remains silent and observing, weighing on the forms simply by their awareness of your observation, and the confusion that stirs in them; the conflicts and wars they engage in because they search to gain some acknowledgement from you.

Perhaps that is what we do in some of these experiences on the earth human timeline.
And in some other experiences, we choose to respond- to answer, to get involved, to awaken the form to the "more" which is neither domination and submission, powerful and powerless, victim and tyrant.... but something else entirely! Joyful Creativity!

Maybe the idea of no control is just too scary to even contemplate being 'just the seeing' of what is happening.

This spark of consciousness cannot fear, nothing is "scary" to it.
You are focusing on motivation through fear- open your mind for a second to the possibility of inspiration through joy...?

This thread reminds me of a number of dreams I've had where I may have jumped into the body and mind of other people. While such dreams can be exciting and interesting, it can be horrific if you jumped into a terrible serial killer and their thought processes are a complete 180 from yours and you're feeling all the pleasure they feel from a kill and what I call just plain evil. If you could deal with occassionally jumping into the minds of killers, thieves, and others, it could be very interesting. I've also dreamed I've jumped into the minds of solders on black ops missions. That I found interesting. Except when things went wrong. It can terminate suddenly if your host dies. I suspect there was a global civilization before our history books indicate like maybe over 10,000 years ago, or global trade at a minimum.

If you could jump into other minds, it might be more interesting jumping into the minds of other humanoid species on other planets as well. I'd want to return before getting stuck. I've had some dreams involving alien species but it wasn't usually the same. In my dream it was like most of the time, the alien was telepathic and communicating with me and aware of my presence.
I do remember one dream that I knew had to be a dream. I dreamed I woke up but when I looked out the window, I wasn't on Earth. That would be like having an out of body experience and waking up in the wrong body on the wrong planet.
I've explored this idea in my dreams.
Another idea is that in alternate universes, your alternate version of you could have chosen a multitude of different choices, occupations, wives, or other choices. Exploring alternatives could be interesting.

originally posted by: Bluesma


You seem to have a problem differenciating the concepts of "control" and "influence".

Because you have said that I have a problem differentiating the concepts 'control' and 'influence' - I went online to find the definition of 'influence'. Here is the first definition I found.

influence
/ˈɪnflʊəns/

noun

noun: influence; plural noun: influences

1.
the capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behaviour of someone or something, or the effect itself.

You are unable to conceptualize anything in between total power and total powerlessness? Domination and submission? Passivity and aggressivity?

No, I never mentioned total power or total powerlessness -domination and submission, passivity or aggression - none of these words entered my mind.
The word 'influence' to me means having some sort of power to control, to have an impact on, to be able to effect.

I did not suggest you have control- I specifically wrote that you may find it difficult, if not impossible, to break through the program and have an influence. But it is not impossible in all cases.

Because you have stated that 'it is not impossible in all cases' - it appears to me that you believe there is some way that control (to be able to influence) is possible.

The way I see it is that if one is just the seeing then there is no way that one has any control - all that happens is seen to be happening. The OP appears to me to be speaking about just being the eyes - the OP speaks about going somewhere else to experience what the time and place is like.

In the realm of matter, time and space, there emerges a reality of "self" and "other"- or separated objects. This opens the door to the possibility of co-creation, cooperation, power with limitations existing precisely because there is this "other" or not "I" (eye).

That is the draw and interest in projecting into that realm- not just to observe and experience "other" but to experience the interplay of relation.

It is a realm of relativity, only possible because of the separation.

Once you project into this particular realm of existence, there is relativity- between the form/vehicle you use, and the world which surrounds it, between it and the other realms of existence, and even, between it and your spark of consciousness.

There is relativity to potential- potentials become limited relative to the entity, to the situations. In each moment there are potentials for the next moment existing- they are limited, but still plural.

Part of observing is experiencing the way each I (eye) impacts and co-creates what arises. The form you have projected into has it's program, which is engineered and evolved to move in that environment and reality- as such, it doesn't usually come with an ability to perceive realities other than this one.

So it is prone to thinking it's automatic reflex system is all there is that can interact with the "not I", "other" or "exterior world".

It is programmed to focus on things such as domination, submission, victimization and tyranny, powerful and powerless, good and bad, and you can certainly choose to just experience and observe that.

Except that in doing so, you have entered an awareness of separation and relativity here, of "observer" and "observed".
Which opens the door to the possibility of experiencing interaction, relation, cooperation and co-creation which is born of this "observer" and "observed".

Choose to reject that opportunity for joyful creation. My spark is quite drawn to the potential for creativity that is made possible in a relative universe! It cannot help but bring other potentials into arising that transcend the good/bad, powerful/powerless, dominated/submitted, victim/tyrant paradigm.
Simply by observing, it's nature impacts and influences. This vehicle senses it's presence and becomes aware- there is MORE. The potentials are more numerous and expand beyond the polarization within it's programming.
Desire to experience this expansion arises from that awareness.

An earthly metaphor-
You decide to go for a walk in the forest, to observe and experience the nature there.
You think you are just observing what is arising there, the interplay of the plants, animals, air, water, light and dark.

Except that, your presence impacts that environment, always! It cannot be otherwise! Your feet press the ground and the leaves and insects there, your leg touches a light branch, and some of it's leaves or seed are shaken to the ground, your form moving below changes the behavior of the squirrels watching from the trees above, it makes the boar or deer choose a different path, or have other emotional/chemical state in their body when they smell, hear or see you.

Conscious awareness present cannot have no impact at all, even if it tries. Even if the eye is staying silent in it's observation, the vehicle will subtly sense it's presence, and that has an impact on it. Awareness stirs awareness. One of the very high potentials of these "observing" adventures is the vehicle (the observed) starts to an awakening awareness of more potential than this reality, than the brute polarization.
It will begin to desire to uncover and experience more of that.

Sense of Divine, sacred, transcendent is born in that vehicle because of your presence.
It will try to understand that sense, and it's relation at first using it's own limited programs -
there is a Good and Bad (the transcendent is "good" and the material is "bad"),
powerful and powerless (the transcendent is powerful, the material powerless)...

It will search to engage in relation through it's usual concepts-
The material should submit to the transcendent completely, and be dominated.


At this point in the vehicles struggle to comprehend the "more", all the while stuck within what it already knows, turning in circles in it's own cage of programming,
The opportunity arises for you to let your influence be felt and let them discover what the "more" is beyond those earthly concepts.


You can be the God that remains silent and observing, weighing on the forms simply by their awareness of your observation, and the confusion that stirs in them; the conflicts and wars they engage in because they search to gain some acknowledgement from you.

Perhaps that is what we do in some of these experiences on the earth human timeline.
And in some other experiences, we choose to respond- to answer, to get involved, to awaken the form to the "more" which is neither domination and submission, powerful and powerless, victim and tyrant.... but something else entirely! Joyful Creativity!

This spark of consciousness cannot fear, nothing is "scary" to it.
You are focusing on motivation through fear- open your mind for a second to the possibility of inspiration through joy...?

I didn't realize that this thread was about 'joy' or the 'divine' or the 'soul', the 'sacred' - I have only ever been referring to the bit that says 'being just the eyes' going anywhere in time and space to experience that time - it seems as if it has gone a little off track.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

No, I never mentioned total power or total powerlessness -domination and submission, passivity or aggression - none of these words entered my mind.
The word 'influence' to me means having some sort of power to control, to have an impact on, to be able to effect.

Control definitions-
verb (used with object), controlled, controlling.
1. to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command

noun
6.
the act or power of controlling; regulation; domination or command:


So to have control over another is to dominate them. (that is where I bring the words "domination" and "submission".)

I can give suggestions to a person on the street, and possibly influence the direction they choose to go,
If they have asked me for directions.
If I try to just give them orders or commands, without their desire or request, my influence will most likely not happen- I do not have that power of control in relation to them.
See the difference?

The way I see it is that if one is just the seeing then there is no way that one has any control - all that happens is seen to be happening. The OP appears to me to be speaking about just being the eyes - the OP speaks about going somewhere else to experience what the time and place is like.


I didn't realize that this thread was about 'joy' or the 'divine' or the 'soul', the 'sacred' - I have only ever been referring to the bit that says 'being just the eyes' going anywhere in time and space to experience that time - it seems as if it has gone a little off track.

it hasn't gone off track, but the idea has been developed in further detail.
Apparently, it wasn't explained very well.
I'll try again, in a different way.

If you want to go back and just be an observer within a body,
and not participate in anyway, you can.

But your presence will have an effect upon the consciousness of that body.
It will be felt, on some level. Consciousness observing has an impact on the observed.

Consider the implications of that.

A mind which senses there is an invisible observer,
A mind which is used to only dealing with this realm of the physical senses,
Trying to make sense of something that cannot be touched, seen, smelled, tasted, or heard with the ears...

What do you think they would call that? How would they conceptualize it, and communicate with others about this?

That is where words such as "divinity", "God(s)", "sanctity", "soul" and "transcendence", enter their language, and they begin to contemplate their relationship to this "invisible eye" presence.

-They begin to try to determine- am I superior or inferior to this "eye"? (because hierarchy is part of their social structure program to increase chances of survival)

-They begin to ask- is this "eye" of value to me in my pain avoidance/draw towards pleasure? (because that too, is part of their survival program)

You may be no god (or demon either) and have no intent to dominate nor submit, and no preference for pain or pleasure,
but here you are, with them doing the best they can to understand your invisible observing presence along the lines of their limited survival programs.
So when they start praying to you for guidance, or aid, in whatever it is they want to achieve,

You can certainly choose to stay silent.
But my question is,
What would that choice be motivated by?
If you don't care either way, you just want to experience whatever happens, observe existing happening,
Where would the desire to NOT answer them come from?

That stranger on the street, who asks you for directions,
For whom you really have no personal preference for where they go,
Why would you choose to reject the request and not answer them?

Without having projected into this body with an intent to have an impact, it has happened, it has arisen.
Without having any intent to be worshipped or feared, it has happened, it has arisen.
Without having any intent to give guidance to this entity to go one way or another, do one thing or another,
here they are requesting it of you.


Unless you are going upon the idea that you are somehow limited and blocked by some other force or law from being able to communicate with this body and mind? If so, where is this limitation coming from?
The only limitation I can fathom is their own individual will and programs of belief and behavior.


Oh and "joy" - I guess I pick up no other motivating fuel for projecting into matter and experience existing.


Look at it this way, what this whole idea is implying, is that if this is true or could happen,
We might be responsible for man's focus on religion and spirituality throughout history.

its called phowa