Today, For The First Time In My Life I Am Ashamed To Be A Canadian

a reply to: masqua

To have one's face open to another you can read their facial expressions, you can use to the best of your ability to communicate, i.e.: body language is 90% of communication.

Also, and I do this myself, due to having poorer hearing than younger I do watch other people's lips to determine exactly what they are saying. I cannot imagine understanding what someone else is saying if their face is covered as I have to be looking at a person in order to grasp what they are saying by using: what I hear, watching their mouth, taking in their facial expressions.

If I were walking down a sidewalk and had a man with a facial covering approach me but there was some burly creep walking on the other sidewalk I would cross the road and walk next to the "creepy" fellow. Someone hiding their face is not just giving a dishonest vibe by not wanting to show their complete selves, it's the whole unknown aspect. Yes, it gives me doubts as to what I cannot see.

Now, knowing what the niquab is and how it's a personal thing does not instill fear in me but it's the concept - I am a firm believer in one right for all. No one should be hiding their identity when out in the Canadian public. It is not right when men cannot cover their faces when a woman can simply because it's a niquab. And I don't want to walk around with anyone covering their face when I can't read their body language.

a reply to: ccseagull

The backlash is taking a comical turn:

Voters have been turning up at advance polling stations in Quebec and Newfoundland over the past two days, ready to cast ballots while clad in outrageous costumes and masks.

Under Elections Canada rules, electors are allowed to vote while wearing a face covering as long as they take an oath attesting they are eligible and provide two pieces of ID, one which includes a current address.

A handful of voters — some of whom are upset over the niqab debate that has dominated the run-up to the election — have shown up dressed as ghosts, clowns and even mummers; a traditional costume in Newfoundland.

www.cbc.ca...

a reply to: cavtrooper7

On that point we agree, 200%.
Second line.

a reply to: ccseagull
That's just it.
They aren't imposing it in anyone but themselves.
They are asking to be respected for their beliefs.
I don't agree with their beliefs, or any religious belief, period...but I dint care if you aren't making me do anything, other than see you, (or in this case, not see you).

a reply to: ccseagull

So what you're saying is, your fear of the unknown trumps everyone else's freedom to exist as they are comfortable?
Sorry, no chance.
If you are that scared of something so trivial, I suggest you stay home.
I'm sick and tired of this security theatre that does nothing but make the cowards of our society feel safer (you're not), and put more power in the hands of people who want it for the sake of having it.
Your security doesn't trump my right to be left the hell alone.

originally posted by: Danton
a reply to: VictorBloodworth

You like a lot of crap but that's your right I guess

Hold on...you guys eat Vegemite.
Talk about crap, lol...

This was honestly the first time?

How does that go over with the TSA when they try to board a plane ?
Do they still get to keep their faces covered ?

I imagine it would be the same as the citizenship ceremony, she took the covering off beforehand to prove her identity and then put it back on for the actual ceremony.

The west has become it's own worst enemy. Inviting immigrants in that it knows with 100% certainty don't share it's values.

It stands to reason that western countries wouldn't allow anymore Muslim immigrants to invade, after 9/11, the attacks in England, Spain, Charlie Hebdo. Why would any western nation invite any Muslims in?

There is no explanation. Western people have been so comfortable for so long that they've lost all survival instinct. Similar to an animal raised in captivity.

Whereas the Muslims in this massive wave are quite the opposite. They are keen, sharp, they sense weakness. They pounce on western societies and fight them with their own tools. Suing Canada is a great example of that. Look at the wave of immigrants in Europe. They stream over borders, no fear, no respect. They demand services, food, housing.

The west is too foolish, too naive to see all this for what it is. It is an invasion. But the dulled instincts of soft westerners can't see it. All they see are people they should help. Just like the frog helped the scorpion.

originally posted by: gladtobehere
a reply to: Caroline13456

I think we're missing the bigger point in all this which is the Wests' (seemingly) unending desire for constant warfare and "regime" change, especially in the Middle East.

And you are missing the BIGGEST POINT, you are classing countries as a whole when 90% of the people in them never wanted any of this to happen and said so en masse but were ignored by our governments in favour of their own agenda.

Zunera Ishaq is a disgusting chancer benefitting from weak governments and not because the PEOPLE want her or her Radical beliefs...
Please remember that THE PEOPLE don't deserve the crap they are getting,

a reply to: Caroline13456

Has anybody read the ruling of the judge? I did. You can find it here. In short: the Court feels that the essential rights of any (almost) Canadian citizen to take the oath according to their religious beliefs is more important than the (now illegal) section in the Manual that describes how the oath has to be taken in which it states that any full or partial face covering has to be removed.

Actually, I'd say it's a victory for Canadian liberty. This woman does not infringe other people's rights, she has a religion that demands her to cover her face, she does this volunarily. The judge, IMO, judged this case correctly.

originally posted by: hammanderrIt stands to reason that western countries wouldn't allow anymore Muslim immigrants to invade, after 9/11, the attacks in England, Spain, Charlie Hebdo. Why would any western nation invite any Muslims in?

Because it weren't "the Muslims" that attacked England, Spain, France. It weren't "the Muslims" that brought the Towers down. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are quite tolerant and peaceloving. It are extremists, mercenaries and other criminal idiots that caused 9/11 et al. Actually, this site is full of alternate explanations for say 9/11 - and many Americans believe it was done by Americans. Not by "the Muslims".

Also, you're generalizing. You might just as well say that "the Americans" should not be let into other countries because they like to organise mass-shootings at schools.

There is no explanation. Western people have been so comfortable for so long that they've lost all survival instinct. Similar to an animal raised in captivity.

Yeah sure, we've been comfortable - you never heard about the Cold War, Vietnam, Gulf Wars, World War I and II, Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Bosnia .. oh, here's a list. Yeah, very comfortable

Whereas the Muslims in this massive wave are quite the opposite. They are keen, sharp, they sense weakness.

They are people. Some of them are keen, others plain stupid. Nothing new under the sun, same goes for us.

They pounce on western societies and fight them with their own tools. Suing Canada is a great example of that. Look at the wave of immigrants in Europe. They stream over borders, no fear, no respect. They demand services, food, housing.

Actually, we offer them food, housing and services. Voluntarily. Here in Europe we don't really have borders, so they don't really "stream" over them, they just go from place to place in search of shelter, food and welcome. Which they all too often only find in camps, where they are thrown together like cattle, regardless their culture, background and religion. No wonder they have a brawl regularly: if you just fled your nation because it was bombed by the broters,sons and fathers of the people in the next tent, you might be a bit upset yourself.

Then - using the law for what it was meant for is not misusing it. You can disagree with a judges ruling, but it's a judges ruling nevertheless. All was done like we in the West think this should be done. You simply don't like the outcome, but the process itself was correct and totally according to our culture. A culture that this young lady now is part of - including her religion.

The west is too foolish, too naive to see all this for what it is. It is an invasion. But the dulled instincts of soft westerners can't see it. All they see are people they should help. Just like the frog helped the scorpion.

Of course we see people we should help - that's all there is to see. The rest is your imagination.

originally posted by: Caroline13456
a reply to: the2ofusr1

I am not a Harper shill by any stretch. Not particularly pleased with a number of his policies but as I mentioned I believe he is the lesser of the three evils.

Ya know, I get it. To the untrianed libtard eye, you come across as racist or something assinine like that. But not to me, and seems as though most people here get it too.

I don't want to vote for any of these assclowns, because well...they're all assclowns. And I fear Canada is about to get its version of the 2008 US elections. Everyone SEEMS to be behind the "anyone but Harper" vote. Personally that to me is very reminiscent of "anyone but another Bush administration" (probably just not Republican because he already had 2 terms at that point...I know, crazy huh?). And where did that get them? Anyone aware that Trudeau's slogan for his campaign just before it all kicked off officially was "HOPE & CHANGE".... Yeah...hahahahaha, oh the times they are a changin'. But not really...

Here is my issue though. No one should feel as though they should be forced to vote for the lesser of the evils. Why are we even accepting this evil to begin with? For the love of poutine, we don't have to accept this. Stop being a pussy and stand up to this sh!t!!!! And if you can't, then abstain your vote! It is still a say. I welcome the day the vast majority of the country just says "f#@k this system!"

But that's my fantasy land...kind of like how other people fantasize about Canadian (western) politics being benign and thus an effective democracy. Hahahahaha.......sigh

As for the religious BS of face coverings. Well, here in Canada we have something called English common law and civil law (Quebec). Therefore it overlooks religious beliefs (or should) in terms of the court. And if you LEGALLY want to be a citizen, then you show your face that one time on that one day to do so. Otherwise, go back to where you came from. Because when you think of it, the only reason the face is covered is to abide by Sharia law. Well, no Sharia law, no excuses. The mask goes or you go. Before and after that ceremony though, feel free to wear or not wear whatever you want! It's a free country, just not until you are a citizen. And to be a citizen, you must do as we all do and present ourselves accordingly. The courts for some reason or another though think they owe non citizens the rights and freedoms citizens have...well, if that's the case, why even have the damn citizenship BS in the first place? Why not just grant all rights and freedoms to anyone the second they step on our soil?

If this was the Mennonites or Amish who had this thing of covering your face for religious beliefs, then I would almost expect everyone not to care one bit. But that's because they are likely some of the most peaceful religious communities in North America. Islam is basicslly the other end of the spectrum... Mainly because the religion is tied into their politics (Sharia law). I know it preaches peace and love and tolerance but I have yet to witness that. Call me whatever, but I truly have yet to witness that. Not to say that I haven't met nice Muslims, but I have a feeling they are nice due to who they are and not their religion.

So if they don't like the law of the land, leave! Just like me never wanting to live in the Middle East. But that's me and my view from my set of morals, which I would never try and impose on a host of mine.

Sorry if I'm not PC enough for everyone, but I kicked PC Principal in the balls and don't really give a sh!t anymore.

Edit: just to clarify, I'm not bringing this all up in regards to war torn refugees coming here. I truly feel for them as they never wanted the BS the western governments threw at them. That said, I don't believe letting them into Western society unrestricted is a sane solution. Stop the war, help them rebuild and give them their lives back. I will happily pay more for everything in my day to day life if it means peace and these people getting their home back. What politician will suggest that?

Something else I thought of. If we are to accept this religious freedom of veiling ones identity behind a cloth, how does one affirm the identity matches that of what is claimed on ID cards or what not? Are they covered in drivers license pictures? Or likely passport or other documents, because they likely aren't driving... Ya know Sharia law and all.

But like the voters who are casting ballots in masks by taking an oath and showing ID, like...how is that foolproof?

Do you swear you are who you say you are?

Ummm...yes...

Ok! Thanks!

Wtf?

So basically don't be surprised when biometrics are racheted up to keep tabs on everyone. Thanks to it being very OK with the state to cover your face under legally sensitive conditions.

a reply to: Caroline13456

Maybe keep your shame to yourself. This woman took her Niqab off in front of a female guard to prove she was who she was. After that, what does it matter if she covers her face for the ceremony?

Harper is out to get Muslims, in one way or another, he is stirring the pot causing hate across the county. Maybe be ashamed of that.

Canada is not built on "lets all look the same" we are many different races and cultures, coming from many different places. And while we could not do what she did in certain countries around the world, maybe we should be proud that our County supports freedom for all. (Or is it just freedom for the people that toe the line?)

If it were a case of the woman wearing a Niqab having no identification process before she took the ceremony, I would have a problem. But that was not the case. We should be very proud of this woman, standing up for her rights, being a Canadian well before she took the oath!

Spoken from a Canadian in Alberta!

I believe this whole niqab and burqa news hysteria is blown completely out of proportion by both the Canadian news media and the Conservative Party. They make it seem like every single Middle Eastern immigrant is wanting to hide their identity and change Canada into Sharia law, when I'm willing to bet that it's only a scant minority of actual Middle Eastern female immigrants who choose to continue to adopt to their religious or culturally-mandated that would take their citizenship oath while still under veil.

And as a Canadian, I honestly don't have that much of a problem with it. I would prefer, for logical reasons of simple identification, that they show their face but we have other ways of proving identity for federal purposes that could be exercised instead; this isn't 1915 where all we had were black and white photographs to identify people with, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over a few dozen individuals who wish to remain veiled.

I also give immigrants a bit of leeway in regards to wishing to hold onto their cultural values and practices, because for all of us here on the continent of North America (except if one is Native American) we're all immigrants. Doesn't matter how many generations our families have been here, we all at some point came ashore in a leaky wooden boat in search of the very same thing all of these present immigrants are coming for: a better life. And just like they, our ancestors retained much of their religious beliefs, cultural values and even way of dress when they came over. They didn't shed everything they knew and understood overnight in order to 'assimilate'. Assimilation takes time, but it happens. You just have to give it a chance.

And all of this immigrant fear in general is utter nonsense, just as it was in generations past. My Irish ancestors and all like them were reviled when the waves of immigrants flooded America during the famines of the 1830's and 1840's, in much the same way the Chinese were in the turn of the century, and the Indian and Pakistani during the 1980's and 1990's. I've read the history and I've heard the slurs, racism and lies applied to the most recent, but what no one gives these groups of immigrants credit for is when after they've assimilated into our culture over time, and then grow to produce and contribute to the next generation of hard workers, and engineers, and inventors, and scientists, and politicians, and even leaders that make each successive generation of their new country better and stronger and more prosperous for all.

Canada and the United States are multicultural nations, and it's that continuous addition of differing cultures that makes us all stronger in the end. These few women might become Canadian citizens wearing their veils and coverings, but I'm willing to bet their future Canadian children and grandchildren won't.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

It's a lovely fantasy you paint, one in which the west should gladly allow itself to be overrun by Muslims. One in which it isn't Muslims that commit acts of terror but extremists. If only fantasy was reality. There will be serious repercussions regardless of what you or anyone else says. See, that's the thing about reality, it's unforgiving. Reality doesn't care about idealistic day dreaming. Reality is real. And in the real world the west is being invaded by Muslims.

originally posted by: hammanderr

Reality is real. And in the real world the west is being invaded by Muslims.

But in your reality, the west did not invade the muslim world first, right?

Oh yeah... that was so yesterday and not relevant to the present issue of millions of displaced persons.

One person should never be allowed to force their religious views on an entire nation enough that the nation has to change their laws to accommodate them.

Over 85% of Canadians are against this ruling allowing her to do this.

She voluntarily chose to take the oath, and voluntarily chooses to wear the niqab (it's NOT actually required in Islam).

No one is making her do this. She chose to do this knowing what the rules were. If we went to her country and tried to change their rules, they'd laugh at us, which is probably primarily why she left.

Part of becoming a Canadian citizen is that you have to show that you would make a good Canadian. By suing the Canadian Government to be allowed to be different from Canadians, she is not meeting this most basic requirement of citizenship, and her application should be denied or revoked on these grounds.

I'm not anti Muslim or anti religion, I'm definitely anti having one person dictate to an entire nation.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over a few dozen individuals who wish to remain veiled.

quote]

You should. If someone really wanting to get into the country to do something nasty wanted to challenge being identified, this is now a legal justification.