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What is with Scientology?

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posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by cybertroy
If Scientology were so bad then why is John Travolta doing so well, why does Tom Cruise top the charts?

Well my guess would be that they are both very good-looking men with talent (I'm female). How is that attributed to Scientology's teachings?

As for why I think the current management of the church is in it for the money, think about this. If the church didn't pay all those PI's to harass people and lawyers to threaten people, maybe then people wouldn't have to spend their life savings to cross the bridge, because without that overhead they could lower prices. But it is more important to pay huge $'s to suppress the information that you say will help save mankind, than to share access with all who are interested, for a more reasonable cost. I understand that a church as young as Scientology does not have the resources of more established, older ones. I don't even really have a problem with the concept of paying for the different courses, because as has been pointed out, other churches requires tithes, and of course you need to bring in income to keep going. What I do have a problem with is the re-writing, and continual promises that the next step is the big one, and then a new level is issued. All the while the prices going up, up, up. Waaaaaaaaaaay up. Here's a thought, the current executive directors of the church discontinue the extremely pricey policy of harassment and legal threats against those who don't agree with them. They then take that money, and use it to spread the word, and stop turning people off with all the secrecy and intrigue and questionable policies, declares and the like. The church does not need anyone to generate bad press for them, they do it themselves. Because if it is, as you believe, the greatest thing since sliced bread and can save us all from ourselves, then I would think you've got a pretty hot seller there. If you make it accessible to the average person, at a reasonable price that doesn't bankrupt people to save them, and be more open so that people can learn more about it without the extreme pressure, you might increase your membership. Instead, they have chosen short-term gain to benefit a few elite at the expense of others, when they could choose to benefit the entire church. Because in the long-term, higher membership means more money and more acceptance. I can't stress enough that I do not have a problem with Scientology, per se. It is the way the church is run by a small, powerful few, the re-writing of the original tech and the current management that I object to. If you believe it, and believing it makes you a better person, than that is good enough for me.

As for psychiatry/psychology, you won't get any argument from me that people are indeed being overmedicated, and that far too many children are put on drugs that don't need them. But to say that they perform no useful function at all is just not true. Many people are helped by therapy without medication at all, using the same kind of techniques you use. They talk it through with someone who listens, and learn why it bothers them and get over it. How is that harmful? How is studying why serial killers and child molesters do what they do so we can learn how to stop them before they start hurt society? Just because pharmaceutical companies push drugs on us to increase sales, and some professions push drugs on parents to make their job easier, does not mean that all in the field are bad.




posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 05:33 AM
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Duzey, that's the most astute summation of the situation I've ever read. (I feell another Way Above coming on!)

This "seige mentality", seeing an enemy under every bush thing is highly damaging. Another example is the church's refusal to communicate with people who have chosen to leave. I guess it's all related to twisting Hubbard's original writings on Ethics out of all recognition, but surely it can't be a Good Thing.

A couple of months ago I decided it was time to see about rejoining the church. (This is before I'd even heard of the freezone.) But do you think anyone would communicate with me? Not on your life!! OK at first, but as soon as my "status" was discovered, that was it, no futher comm. The only "choice" I was given was to report to my original organization (5,000 miles away); presumably, if I had turned up in the appropriate spirit of supplication, armed with a wad of cash, I perhaps would have been allowed to begin "working through" my Ethics "condition."

Utter rubbish. I would have liked an opportunity to discuss the circumstances of my departure, which in fact was thoroughly mishandled (or NOT handled) by the organization. I'm not denying all responsibility, but that responsibility needed to be shared.

Another example: the church recently tried (and failed) to shut down a friend's website. But do you think anyone bothered to contact him directly? He would have been more than happy to discuss the issue, but the only comm he got was from a church lawyer via his ISP...

Hubbard reckoned that all abberation is based on failed comminucation.

I rest my case.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 11:07 AM
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Hi Troy,
I understand you wish to defend your Church. You should try for an exterior viewpoint. The COS has made the subject and philosophy of Scientology a mockery. Top management needs to be dealt with . Note that on this forum, which is comprised of many of those who previously would be interested in scn there is intense dislike for the subject. Its a real live survey for you.


You want to find a forum where Everyone likes scn, try the theta forum on yahoo. Trouble is to get there you need a recommendation from someone at your local org. Then I gather an in depth phone interrogation before becoming a member. COS regards and teaches its members to see the world as a dangerous place. In fact the world is where we are supposed to operate. However per ethics tech when an individual or an organisations ethics are out over a period of time, society will start to apply justice. This may not be done accurately, optimumly. Thus perhaps over reaction from European governments.
TROY
Terril, I think you missed the point of GAT (Golden Age of Tech), which basically makes Auditors better at what they do. They are trained thouroughly and know there stuff so well they don't even have to think about it. This will improve the service, not hinder it. This makes happier customers.
TERRIL
LRH was not GAT trained, nor was his auditor David Mayo. Nor were
any auditors trained by LRH. IN fact he specifically said no other drills allowed than those he wrote. He did not write GAT. You think a class 8 of decades experience dosn't know what to do?
TROY
Regarding some other peoples posts and links, why do you think it's about the money? What organization would exist on this earth without it? Are Scientologists supposed to work away and not have any money to forward the organization, or feed themselves. Sorry folks, this world is not world where you can live for free, you must have money.
TERRIL
IAS has collected $400,000,000 in the last 20 years. The staff don't get it. They get paidvirtually nothing.

PS Madonna is Rich and Talented. And good looking. Should we change our religion?



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by cybertroy
You want to know what is bad, my Sister-in-laws brother who is on Ritalin because of Psychology, and doesn't care about anything. He's suppressed by these crap pills, headed toward being a zombie of sorts.


My father is Bipolar Schizophrenic and I will be the first to admit that antipsychotic medication has some bad side affects but at least he could form coherent sentances.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Azeari of the Radiant Eye
Hubbard reckoned that all abberation is based on failed comminucation.


It is too bad that the official position of the church is that the failed communication is always on the part of the opposing party. Perhaps they should re-evaluate their communication skills? But then again, that would be an admission that they could be in error.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 12:51 AM
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sinatracementshoes, what are you talking about with coherent sentences? I knew a kid on these crazy drugs who drooled and could hardly stay alert. How is that coherent? Is Psychology or Psychiatry something to defend? There is nothing to defend? Their science is dead and was dead when it started, back with penis envy and icepicks. Unless they reform then there is nothing to debate with these so-called sciences. It is impossible to win a debate in their favor on this subject. I stated this and I will state it again, some of my best times were within Scientology. I'm not getting paid to say it, Scientology isn't beside me forcing me to say this. I am sitting at home on my computer. Doesn't that say something?

I am so uneasy about my little nephews being put on Ritalin, why do they deserve this treatment? Maybe kids just need something to do, a challenge. So what they get loud sometimes, dammit don't you remember when you were a kid? You had the world at your fingertips, your imagination was free. Weren't you loud, didn't you jump on the bed. Some dumb organization wants to take away kids self expression, and spirit. They say "oh he's hyperactive, we had better stop him, give him a shot, give him a pill." Do you know your kids can be taken away from you if you don't put them on Ritalin for neglect, courtesy of Psychology? Folks this is criminal activity, legal by law. You support them and you support the demise of the human spirit, and the destruction of society, this is not an exaggeration.

There are catalogs of fake diseases created, and some expensive medicine is created to handle it. Turn on the TV and you will see it right in front of your face, I am not lying. Commercials, "here take a pill because you are depressed", "here take a pill if you are uneasy around people", "how about Adult Attention Deficit Disorder, we got something for that too." If you want to talk money, go ahead and price some psychotherapy, go ahead. Price their medicine, go ahead. Who's got the deep pockets? Who's running the big ads? There are also alternatives to those drugs found right in vitamin stores around the world.

I've seen Scientologists make hundreds of dollars in a week for pay. You get paid for your production in Scientology, I cann't think of a more fair way to get paid. Scientology is trying to survive as an organization, and their money mangement skills shows this. Dianetics has been around since the 1950's, (Scientology being developed a little later). How many companies and businesses fall every year. The fact that Scientology still stands is a testimate to there management skills? There isn't some big wig stuffing their pockets and looking down on you, it is very much a team activity. How long do you think an organization would last with gready executives stuffing their pockets? It probably wouldn' t last.

As far as Travolta and Cruise. Scientology helps them do well, and there success reflects this. If they weren't doing well and Scientology was bad, wouldn' t this show on the outside. People with stress and are not doing well don't run around with smiles on their face.

Bottom line I've seen Dianetics and Scientology work. I've seen the less than pleasant man become pleasant and start to laugh, I know because I was doing the auditing. I have had physical and mental pain diminish. I've seen people come out of auditing with that "wow!" kind of attitude, they are literally blown away by the results sometimes. I've seen the criminal reform. And the success goes on and on. And this was done without expensive drugs, and such.

Much love,

Troy



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 01:09 AM
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Again, let me state that I do believe there are well meaning people working in Psychology or Psychiatry. I did not say they were all bad.

Much love,

Troy



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 02:08 AM
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cybertroy,

It is obvious that you feel very strongly about this issue. But what I seem to get from your posts is an aversion to using medication to treat perceived mental problems. So I would like to confine the condemnation to psychiatry for the purposes of the discussion (this part, anyways), as this is not what psychology primarily focuses on. And really, you can't blame the use of these pills on them.

The big drug companies invent the pill, decide what they can market it to cure, and then run it through the FDA for a year or so, nobody worrying about long term effects. Then they send the sales teams out to see the doctors, and not just psychiatrists. I would guess that the majority of these meds are in fact dispensed by family practitioners. They leave loads of free samples, lots of colourful brochures and probably even a pen or two. As for the advertising, even if it is being co-sponsored by some psych association; the drug companies are the ones paying huge money for it, to get us, the consumer, to ask for it.

As for children, could someone else in the US please confirm for me that you can have your children removed for refusing to medicate them? If this is true, I would think that is terrible. My cousin's oldest boy (9) is a very bright child, and he gets bored in school. Last year, when the school requested the meds, he refused and pulled his child out of school. He made a huge stink, went to the school board, and his son is again attending school, medication free, with a lot of other nice benefits thrown in; his best friend is in his class, two bullies are not, and he has the teacher my cousin requested.

So, while yes psychiatry does use these drugs in some of their treatments, they are not the ones pushing them on us. That's the drug companies, and a percentage of teachers that seem to not understand what children are like. Not to mention us going in and saying 'hey doc, I just saw this really cool pill on tv' and then not leaving until we have a scrip.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 02:21 AM
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Duzey,

I had just started replying to cybertroy when I saw your post. You should check out this link. There is now legislation in place (or soon to become effective, I'm not sure) that prevents schools from requiring that kids be medicated as a condition of attendance.

The story was just breaking when I posted it here on ATS; at that time it was hard to find any other reporting, but I just did a quick Google and there's a bit more now. (CCHR is a CofS front organization, so I was hesitant about them being my only source...but I thought it was important to get the word out...)

[edit on 9-1-2005 by Azeari of the Radiant Eye]



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by cybertroy
Their science is dead and was dead when it started, back with penis envy and icepicks.


Funny you should mention that...your own CCHR org just realeased a story called "PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL ORDERED TO CEASE SHOCKING PATIENTS"; Here's the link. I'm going to submit it to ATS shortly...


I stated this and I will state it again, some of my best times were within Scientology.


Me, too...until recently. But it's faulty logic to suggest that this is proof that everything is rosy within the organization.


I'm not getting paid to say it, Scientology isn't beside me forcing me to say this. I am sitting at home on my computer. Doesn't that say something?


It says that you either don't have the church's "special" web filter installed on your computer, and/or they haven't (yet) banned ATS. Probably won't be long, as there are a growing number of us nasty freezoners here.


I am so uneasy about my little nephews being put on Ritalin...


You have good reason to be uneasy, and you're absolutely right about psychiatry; there was another story on the CCHR website not long ago, about a bill preventing schools from forcing kids to be medcated as a condition of attendance. (See my reply to Duzey...)


Price their medicine, go ahead. Who's got the deep pockets?


It's possible for more than one organization to have deep pockets!


I've seen Scientologists make hundreds of dollars in a week for pay. You get paid for your production in Scientology, I cann't think of a more fair way to get paid.


No, you get paid for your organization's production. Not the same thing at all. And I'll bet my next paycheck that very, very few (if any) normal staff members get "hundreds of dollars a week". (I used to get "several" dollars a week! For a 60+ hour week...)


How long do you think an organization would last with gready executives stuffing their pockets? It probably wouldn' t last.


No, but a successful organization built on truth and sound principles could last for quite awhile after it starts a downward spiral.


Bottom line I've seen Dianetics and Scientology work. I've seen the less than pleasant man become pleasant and start to laugh, I know because I was doing the auditing. I have had physical and mental pain diminish. I've seen people come out of auditing with that "wow!" kind of attitude, they are literally blown away by the results sometimes. I've seen the criminal reform. And the success goes on and on. And this was done without expensive drugs, and such.


You won't get any argument on that; I've seen the same things. The technology works. The point is, though, that it's no longer necessary to join an increasingly criminal organization to achieve these things.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 02:44 AM
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Thanks for the link, good to know


One thing I did notice when googling was most of the links were either fronts, or linked/attributed to to the fronts, not really what I'd consider a remotely unbiased news source. I think that's strange, if that kind of legislation was passed in Canada it would have been all over the news. The politicians would be tripping over each other to tell us about it. I mean, CNN is on 24/7, they might have reported this fact at least once. If I was a parent in America with children in the school system, this would be something I would want to know



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 02:57 AM
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That's cool about the bill preventing schools from forcing kids to be medicated. Good news. I hope it goes well, I've been so worried about my nephews and there was talk that led me to believe that they may try to place one of my nephews on Ritalin. Also cool that Psychiatric patients cann't shock patients anymore. That can really mess up a person. Looks like we do at least agree that Dianetics and Scientology do work.

Troy



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 09:24 AM
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I don't think it's true that they can't shock anyone anymore...this was just one court case in California pertianing to one hospital. But it's a start...

Here's a story: I was receiving psychological treatment, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT, a complete waste of time but at least relatively harmless, compared to other things I allowed them to do to me....). Anyway, my counselor left, and at my first appointment with the new guy, he was recommending Electro Convulsive Therapy within the first five minutes! And this was for possible mild depression, wasn't like I was a complete psycho or anything. Imagine wanting to stick electrodes in someone's brain just because they're not quite dancing for joy!! I was floored, have never been back, and will never go back. Many therapists' hearts are in the right place, but none of them actually have a clue.

As for prescription drugs: the main problem in the US is that they're allowed to advertise. Not so here in the UK, only over-the-counter meds can be advertised. I imagine they still send samples to doctors & such, but at least patients are less likely to come in begging for Effexor or whatever. My wife was flabbergasted when she saw her first US magazine, chock full of ads for all kinds of dangerous meds...so dangerous they have to buy a whole separate page to list side effects. The irony is you can't advertise cigarettes, but you can advertise highly potent drugs. (I'm not condoning smoking, just trying to get some perspective...)

Troy: I'm sure we agree on many more things than we disagree on. We could have some comm and find out, but I'll wager you're not allowed to...which is, of course, at the heart of the problem.

Duzey: I agree about the lack of news coverage on such critical issues, am willing to bet the same thing will happen with this ECT story. I googled my fingers off trying to find any other source about the medicating kids bill, but had no success. Some others who responded to my post tried as well. What can we do? Lobby the newspapers & news services?



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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A start is a start. We have to insist on treatments that work and are safe in the fields of medicine and mental help. We've just got to keep pushing the truth.

Troy



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by Azeari of the Radiant Eye
I googled my fingers off trying to find any other source about the medicating kids bill, but had no success. Some others who responded to my post tried as well. What can we do? Lobby the newspapers & news services?


Ah, another one of my favourite topics.... pull up a chair, get comfy, I tend to be a wordy girl sometimes.


In Canada, we have a boring little channel we like to call CPAC. It broadcasts all the sessions of parliament, unedited and unfiltered, that are a matter of public record. While less exciting to watch than paint dry, I feel comforted in knowing that if something happens, I'll hear about it. That's because all the major news outlet have people that do nothing but watch this stuff and write reports on it. Of course they can do whatever they want behind closed doors, but that's a given.

While I primarily watch Canadian news, I live close enough to the border that I receive at least 5 different Wash stations in my cable pkg. I even receive some Fox news programming, including darling tucker. The differences are amazing! I understand why Americans are so concerned with terrorism, they are bombarded with the topic constantly. But even before 9/11 it was different. If there was any discussion of politics at all, it was a state level issue. Except of course, for CNN and Fox. But they are both so spun in their own directions it's sometimes hard to sort the facts from the filler.

What is there is a lot of is human interest stories, and very local events. Coverage of international events is almost non-existant, except in an event of epic proportions. And now, of course, terrorists and war. When I was in Vegas
xmas 2003 to visit my family, there was a terror alert. People were so worried, it almost ruined their holidays. As we all know, nothing happened. Of course, if there was credible information that this could happen, they had a responsibility to tell people. But the way they go on and on, and the manner it's presented, geez. And the only reason I can think is that if you scare people into feeling they have to be glued to the TV, you're ratings will go up. Short answer, yeah, you have to demand it and start sending emails.

Another reason you may not see a story reported, may simply be for the reason that the media is unaware of it. They usually rely heavily on news feeds, and while they have a few reporters out in the field, they don't have time to discover all the news. They most likely have an area they specialize in and work a few stories at a time. On several occasions, I've heard something on the news and thought, I knew that months ago or I thought everyone knew that. Short answer: If you come across something that isn't being reported on, assume the press is unaware and send them a tip. Send it to the reporter who reports on similar things, whether it's radio, TV or the newspaper. You may have to send a few, but if it's news, someone will check it out. Once one of them picks it up, the rest will follow. OK, not so short answer, but you *were* warned.

I think I've probably rambled enough at this point, or one well before
and I am acutely aware of how incredibly off-topic this is, so I will end it here.

To the mods: my only defense is, he did ask me what I thought.

edited for small things of no consequence that probably bothered no one but me

[edit on 10-1-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 02:38 AM
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Duzey, don't worry about the mods...they don't like excessive quoting or really short replies...your last post was excellent in all respects!

I take your point about submitting news stories; seems like, in this case, the CCHR would have done that themselves. Maybe they did and were ignored.

I get the sense that news reporting - except perhaps at the local level - has become a relatively passive affair. I can picture reporters sitting at their computers waiting for a story to break rather than going out and digging one up.

And you're spot on about reporting of international news on US networks. British people are always amazed after visiting there, how the outside world is virtually ignored. (I imagine the tsunami was an exception, but I'll wager the main slants were the numbers of US casualties and the US relief effort...)

Thank god for the BBC...for all it's flaws, you do get relatively balanced, worldwide reporting.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by cybertroy
sinatracementshoes, what are you talking about with coherent sentences? I knew a kid on these crazy drugs who drooled and could hardly stay alert. How is that coherent? Is Psychology or Psychiatry something to defend? There is nothing to defend? Their science is dead and was dead when it started, back with penis envy and icepicks. Unless they reform then there is nothing to debate with these so-called sciences. It is impossible to win a debate in their favor on this subject.


I have never met you nephews, but I spent my entire childhood with my father and withought medication he lost three jobs, and heard voices telling him to drive on the wrong side of the road, and that is just from the schizophrenia. Now that he is on medication he is a little groggy in the morning and has gained some weight but he has held a job a Lockheed Martin for seven years and no longer has any visual or auditory hallucinations. In my opinion score one for psychiatry. But I do agree with you that psychology is a crock.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 01:41 PM
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What is with Scientology?

Was name of thread. Been posting the successes of those doing it in the Independant Protestant field of Freezone Scientology for some years.
Phil Spickler here was a well known top person in the LA advanced Orgs.
Now he is an Independant.


TECH outside COS. "He is the Perfect auditor".

>>Hi Terrill

>>I went and had two auditing sessions with Phil Spickler ca.10 days
ago. He
>>was just wonderful to work with and of tremendous help. I laughed
and
>>laughed in the car on my way home after the second session. We
decided to
>>stop at that point. I feel great. Thank you for reccommending Phil.
He is
>>the perfect auditor.

>>All the best from
>>Berglind

For more information about services in the Freezone mail me,
Terril Park, at bbaf...@hotmail.com

To find out more about us and to join our
forum see our website at
www.freewebs.com...
Preserve, protect, promote the Tech
internationalfreezone.net...



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 02:01 PM
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Thanks for the info Terril! I guess I should have researched present day Scientology a little more before I created a thread entitled What is with Scientology. To tell you the truth I had no idea that there was a split in Scientology going away from the latter views of LRH. It makes sense, for the core teachings seemed that they could be rather effective and a viable alternative to the norm of just drugging and hoping for the best. Now, don't get me wrong I believe that present day psychology/psychiatry has worked wonders but it is not without it's problems. Far to often, patients are prescribed medications and left to wonder through life in a semi comatose state without any form of counseling what so ever. Proper medication can definitely help but without getting to the root of the problem, through counseling, the illness is only masked and not treated.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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SKYCHIEF
Thanks for the info Terril! I guess I should have researched present day Scientology a little more before I created a thread entitled What is with Scientology.
TERRIL
Not at all. Its not easy to find that there IS an alternative. If we in the
freezone put a metatag or domain name using one of the many trademarks,
like "scientology" we get legal threats. Thus a google of "scientology" won't turn up the concept "Freezone Scientology". We are, in ignorance of the term "Freezone" only found through critical websites and forums.
SK
To tell you the truth I had no idea that there was a split in Scientology going away from the latter views of LRH. It makes sense, for the core teachings seemed that they could be rather effective and a viable alternative to the norm of just drugging and hoping for the best.
T
Scientology is not really in the field of dealing with those with severe mental problems. Its about the increase in ability for the normal.

However COS has adapted as a "promotional technique" the dissing
of the field of psychology/psychiatry. Specialy when COS gets criticised. The
reality is that they will NOT handle such people, even where they could.
They are condidered "Illegal" to deal with. Even after just one childhood experience of taking drugs for mental problems. Its very hypocritical to
use a profession dealing with the most difficult mental problems as a
way to show their virtue when they, supposed experts, dare not do so.

The "solution " of COS is to abandon such people to the treatment they condemn, without in fact providing an alternative. Meanwhile scoring "PR"
points about how bad it all is.




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