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Changing the Debate on Guns

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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 05:16 PM
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originally posted by: dezertdog
a reply to: crazyewok




Which means the underlying issue behind it is more entrenched in the USA or comes out in a diffrent form abroad


How is murder a "different form abroad"?

I believe you skirt the core issue Ewok.




You clearly missed the point.

You raised the point of MASS shootings abroad so I pointed out that they are not as common.

My point is those angry young men that would do the mass shootings in the US may infact still exist in the UK, EU ect but take on a different form, not nessarly even in the form of murder.

UK for example has a very very low murder rate. But fighting and hand to hand violence is high amoung adolescents . So are those same disillusioned young men just takeing the same problem out but in a non fatal way? Could it escalate to mass murders at some point?




posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 05:20 PM
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originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I have a problem with your number 2.

You seem to think the problem has only to do with "young angry white men" what about the same issue that is plaguing black communities? Do we just ignore that problem or is that different?


The black community has similar problems, but theirs IMO are exacerbated by the catastrophic breakdown of the family. In those communities, you see young black men going into gangs where their natural aggressive tendencies come out in all manner of anti-social behavior and the gang functions as "daddy" in most cases.

You see less of it in white communities because the white family has yet to be as gutted although, lucky us, we're getting there.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 05:43 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: dezertdog
a reply to: crazyewok




Which means the underlying issue behind it is more entrenched in the USA or comes out in a diffrent form abroad


How is murder a "different form abroad"?

I believe you skirt the core issue Ewok.




You clearly missed the point.

You raised the point of MASS shootings abroad so I pointed out that they are not as common.

My point is those angry young men that would do the mass shootings in the US may infact still exist in the UK, EU ect but take on a different form, not nessarly even in the form of murder.

UK for example has a very very low murder rate. But fighting and hand to hand violence is high amoung adolescents . So are those same disillusioned young men just takeing the same problem out but in a non fatal way? Could it escalate to mass murders at some point?


Your obfuscation does not address my question or prior statements. Maybe your missing point.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 05:46 PM
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a reply to: dezertdog

Im really not sure what your angleing at.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:01 PM
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a reply to: crazyewok




As I said on page one I wonder if it has something in common with the young males in the UK running off to join ISIS.


That would be much like young males here in the states joining gangs. Be it white, hispanic, black, whatever...they see in those gangs something that their families can't give to them, for whatever reason...a sense of belonging.

Fairly certain you'll find much the same root causes.

Neo has a point when he pointed out that the lack of family, or, to a lesser extent, community is a driving force in this sort of thing.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:04 PM
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a reply to: seagull

Let's look at the last generation of young males and the one before it.

Compare those two generations with the teen and 20-somethings we have now.

What has changed? THAT is what we need to look at. Cause and effect. All three of those generations had easy access to firearms. Something changed in a fairly short period of time. What was it?


edit on 3-10-2015 by queenofswords because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:12 PM
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originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: crazyewok




As I said on page one I wonder if it has something in common with the young males in the UK running off to join ISIS.


That would be much like young males here in the states joining gangs. Be it white, hispanic, black, whatever...they see in those gangs something that their families can't give to them, for whatever reason...a sense of belonging.

Fairly certain you'll find much the same root causes.

Neo has a point when he pointed out that the lack of family, or, to a lesser extent, community is a driving force in this sort of thing.



I am 52 and I can assure you my father would have beat my ass senseless if I would have even in his mind belonged to a gang!

My father beat my ass many times and as an adult? I am thankful he did! He taught me there were consequences in life for making the wrong choice!!

I don't think I need to say anymore.,......

I love my father!
edit on 3-10-2015 by seeker1963 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:14 PM
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a reply to: queenofswords

Exactly!

So, what has changed?

When I was a kid, in the seventies/eighties, I didn't have access to instant media. Electronic media was limited to TV, and radio. Radio was music, with news updates on the hour/half hour. TV was the evening news, and a morning show. There was no 24 hour news cycle.

Life was a lot slower then. Or, perhaps smaller is a better way to phrase it. Instant news was local, maybe national in the event of a big news story.

This isn't the sole reason, of course... But young, easily influenced minds are much more likely to be turned by agenda because of repeated exposure. I wasn't any more, or less, influenced by things then kids today...but there is an avalanche of stuff out there now, that simply wasn't there during my childhood.

Parents try to keep up with it, I'm sure... But when your youngster has a phone with them 24/7, with internet access? Good luck to you. You're going to need it.

Electronic media. So the thoughts of brainwashing may not be so far-fetched as many, myself included, thought? It's just done via twitter, and instagram, rather than some nefarious govt. program.

Food for thought?



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:16 PM
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a reply to: seeker1963

Mine, too.

Then my mom would have taken over...and that's something that didn't bear thinkin' on.

But, I, and you, apparently, had a strong parental base. Many kids today don't. Couple that with exposure to what may seem like a good thing?

Gang membership. ...and I suppose that ISIS could be considered a gang. Sort of.

It's something to think about...



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:20 PM
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a reply to: seagull

I think drug use has changed a lot over the last 50 years.

That alone affects the mind and brain.




posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:22 PM
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originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: crazyewok




As I said on page one I wonder if it has something in common with the young males in the UK running off to join ISIS.


That would be much like young males here in the states joining gangs. Be it white, hispanic, black, whatever...they see in those gangs something that their families can't give to them, for whatever reason...a sense of belonging.

Fairly certain you'll find much the same root causes.

Neo has a point when he pointed out that the lack of family, or, to a lesser extent, community is a driving force in this sort of thing.



Inthink that could be very much a cause. Though I think the best explanation is the fact no ones taught to take responsibility for there own failure so that when something goes wrong these kids lash out as they blame others.
Even with gangs the gangs give kids a sort of measure of "success " be it money or street cred.

Though thing on my mind is what ketsuko said about the UK not being at the point the US is in family and educational change.

Only last week a kid here just got life as he got caught trying to buy a gun off the dark web to use in a school shooting. Luckily someone spotted it and he got caught before anything happend. But is this going to be a start of that trend here in the UK?

This is kinda why me and other UK posters are discussing this issue. We look at the US on this and worry we see our future. Can we spot the problem before its too late here?



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:26 PM
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a reply to: crazyewok

Maybe I read it wrong but did you say a kid got life for trying to buy a gun????



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:27 PM
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a reply to: seagull

I have to agree.

Let's start with the Oklahoma City bombings in the 90's...then Columbine...then suddenly in the 2000's we had a huge increase in the number of mass killings, especially the kind that have no immediate explanation: the Ft. Hood shooter, the Sandy Hook shooter, the Sikh Temple shooter in Wisconsin, the Oregon Mall shooter, the Aurora Colorado Theater shooter, Charleston Church shooter, and now the Oregon college shooter.

What has changed starting in the 90's and escalating to a fever pitch in the 2000's, especially since 2009?



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:28 PM
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This is kinda why me and other UK posters are discussing this issue. We look at the US on this and worry we see our future. Can we spot the problem before its too late here?


I hope you do (spot it). The U.S. looks to the UK also, for trends, but gun control hasn't taken hold. Yet. It will someday.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:30 PM
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originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: crazyewok

Maybe I read it wrong but did you say a kid got life for trying to buy a gun????



No he got life for planning a school shooting.

He got spotted buying a gun illegally off the darkweb.

From that the police got a search warrent and the police pulled his diaries ect they found he was planning a mass shooting at his school.
He was also trying to make pipe bombs.


Still buying a gun illegally here is 5 years. But the life sentence was for conspiracy to murder charge, which he even admitted too.


edit on 3-10-2015 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: crazyewok


Strange if you ask me, you get life for a precrime but a woman gets less then 20 years for stabbing a sex offender who had no involvement to her child. Very odd.
edit on 3-10-2015 by thesaneone because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:41 PM
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originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: crazyewok


Strange if you ask me, you get life for a precrime but a woman gets less then 20 years for stabbing a sex offender who had no involvement to her child. Very odd.


Life here just means he needs to do 14 years after thats he is up for parole.

But what were the police and cps meant to do?

He was found with evidence of him about to commit said crime and he admitted he was going to do it?

Were they meant to hand him the gun and pipe bombs and send him on his way?

Do you let a terrorist walk free cause he hasn't commited his crime yet?



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:47 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Well, rarely do I find myself in agreement with you, but in this thread I applaud everything you have said.


Kids, both boys and girls, must be allowed to be who they are, and they can only do that by being allowed the freedom to do so.
Kids have enormous energy, and I think thats because when we were hunter gatherers the kids would have spent their day following the roaming tribe, they would have been walking all day every day, we may have gotten smarter since those days, but biologically we are still the same, and the kids need an outlet for all that energy. But they cant go out and swing in the tree's like I use to do, or spend the whole summer riding their bicycles like I use to do, or spend their days building camps in the woods like I used to do etc etc.
When I think back, I have to say I think I would have gone mad if I had been made to live like todays kids are expected to live.
Gone mad, there's the answer!

Kids must be given back their freedom!
Having their minds altered by meds for no other reason than trying to make them all the same is criminal!



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:49 PM
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i,m sorry there is no excuse,as obama says america is only mordern country who has these mass shootings in regular occurence,it tells you everything you need to know.

the right to bear arms? after so many massacares i wouldn,t want to be in the possesion of a fire arm.

americans have blinkers on cause it didn,t happen to them,i know i,ll never change an americans thinking on it so thats why i,m glad i do stay in britain, i have more chance of seeing justin beiber become prime minister of canada than i do of seeing someone with a fire arm in my town or any town in a 30 mile radius,

the only reason for that is cause glasgow is in that radius and even then its rare for a gun crime.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:53 PM
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a reply to: sparky31

But guns are only the HOW it happened.

Thats not what we are discussing here.

What we are discussing is the WHY

As mentioned above gun control didnt stop a British kid from trying trying to commit a mass shooting. Gun control only contributed to him getting caught. Nothing is to say a british kid might try again and not get caught.




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