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Changing the Debate on Guns

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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: Xtrozero

Yes, it's about raising kids who are risk averse and don't learn from failure.

My parents were adamant that if I started something, I finish it, including sports. No matter how ugly the season got, I finished it. Of course, there was also the important lesson that it's not always about just winning, too. It's also about having fun playing the game, even if you lose.

There are too many parents who browbeat their kids and only see worth in it if the kid or team win and that's wrong.


edit on 3-10-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: tallcool1


I think that is part of the problem - that people these days don't know how to deal with failure because they are told that it isn't their fault... so maybe when they become what they perceive as failures at life, they feel the need to "get even" with those who have overcome their failures and are being relatively successful.


I think you hit the nail on the head.


I cant really fault that reason.
edit on 3-10-2015 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: neo96

I really really dont like abortion , Not unless its for actual medical reasons.

But thats a separate issue with diffrent causes.


Ain't it funny ?

I have never seen the PRO CHOICE movement extend their argument or fight with the same ferocity when it comes to gun owners RIGHT to choose.

They further don't blame drugs, or make it mental issues either.

Hate to break it to you.

They are not different issues.

They are the SAME issues.

The RIGHT to choose is the RIGHT to choose.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:34 PM
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originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: neo96

I really really dont like abortion , Not unless its for actual medical reasons.

But thats a separate issue with diffrent causes.


Ain't it funny ?

I have never seen the PRO CHOICE movement extend their argument or fight with the same ferocity when it comes to gun owners RIGHT to choose.

They further don't blame drugs, or make it mental issues either.

Hate to break it to you.

They are not different issues.

They are the SAME issues.

The RIGHT to choose is the RIGHT to choose.



Again your confusing the gun control debate on the debate on why young men seem to be prone to killing sprees.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: crazyewok

Nope.

At this point ?

What difference does it make ?

Be it by a gun or Be it by some medical procedure.

The result is the same.

A human life is no more.

If a guns sole purpose is to take life.

That procedure can be summed up the same.

Guess which one has KILLED MORE PEOPLE ?



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:41 PM
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originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
Why cant people just take responsibility for there actions, all i see as usual is people blaming everything under the sun but the person who acted out.

All the psychos habe so much in common, we live in a sick society and we keep on digging our own graves then hide our heads in the sand pretending its someone else fault.



It's easy to say that when you want to then turn around and blame the guns and take them away.


Yes, to a certain extent, no one made him take the actions he did. He picked up the weapons and decided he was going to go out and murder a bunch of people to keep him company on his suicide day.

However, there is a pattern in the mass shooters - all young white males who exhibit certain traits and behaviors.

So, there is something in society shaping these young people. What this discussion is about is what those forced might be.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:44 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
A few days ago, there was a tragic shooting again in America where again a young man has gunned downed his class mates. And again like always the debate about more gun regulation vs less gun regulation rages one with an impotent Obama seeming powerless to do anything in the face of the Gun lobbies influence over congress.

Now this is not a pro-gun or anti-gun thread, this is something different, first however let me just make my own views clear. I am from the UK, I do not own a gun, I do believe the second amendment of the US Constitution is important and should be maintained yet at the same time I also believe that more gun regulation is required and the laws changed. Now yes I know some of you will want to debate my views, tell me that “rights” should not be subject to the “laws” the government creates and so on but my views on guns are not the point of this debate.

No the point of this debate is to change the dialogue of the debate, to move away from pro-gun vs anti-gun to find some common ground on which to start building the foundations for real change to happen. There is zero political appetite with elections around the corner for any changes to gun laws in America. Many members of the public are also strongly opposed to any kind of change. However when you consider that now shootings are becoming almost monthly occurrence then I am sure both can agree that there must be something wrong.

Some in the past have tried to argue that this is a mental health issue. While I do not dispute that this is a contributing factor I think to label every mass-shooter as suffering mental health problems only adds to the stigma of mental health and will eventually lead to more social problems. I do think that more support for mental wellbeing would help with the problem but I do not think it is the fundamental answer.

I think what needs to be looked at more closely is why this is happening. If we look at the demographic of the shooters they are almost always young, white, males ages between 16 – 26, some older, one I read about recently as young as 14. What strikes me when I read about these young men after the event is always the same. The biography usually depicts a young man who felt like a “outsider” who was “quiet”, who may have spent much of his time alone, isolated, felt like he was being judged by his peers. They almost now fall into a stereotype in my view, and that stereotype is of a young angry white man (please do not think I am making this about race I am generalising).

With that said then and if the option of stricter gun laws in the US is not a viable option then surely the debate should move from pro-gun vs anti-gun to a debate seeking to find out why these young men are acting the way they do. We should be investing in training for identifying young men at risk, educating parents, promoting fuller inclusion of all students at schools and collages having more teacher involvement and dare I say it police involvement. There may even be wider cultural influences over these young men that glorify violence or justify their actions as somehow being the “right” or “only” thing to do.

Anyway just some thoughts I figured I would shear.


I would say the main problem is really bad parenting and teaching your own kids how to deal with issues. Parents these days give their kid an iPad and a phone and ignore them the rest of the time. I am shocked there are not more of these kinds of things happening around the world.

It isn't about guns. Weapons in general are accessible to anyone. It is about the way the kids are raised. Most these days have a TV for a sitter or some form of electronics.

May sound "radical", but if we limited electronics the same way we do alcohol and tobacco I bet the rate of any crime would plummet in a matter of months. Parents no longer take an active role in their kids lives. Go through most any neighborhood and look for kids at parks or outside...they are few an far between now. Kids are able to be reclusive and keep to themselves more than ever.

Sure, my kids have electronics and whatnot, but they have to earn time on them and really don't care much for them. I have raised them to play outside and be creative.

I truly believe many "mental health" issues could be solved by dropping all electronic stimuli in impressionable and developing young minds.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:48 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: crazyewok

Nope.

At this point ?

What difference does it make ?

Be it by a gun or Be it by some medical procedure.

The result is the same.

A human life is no more.

If a guns sole purpose is to take life.

That procedure can be summed up the same.

Guess which one has KILLED MORE PEOPLE ?


Thats still doesnt have anything to do with why young men go out and massacre people. ........



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:49 PM
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a reply to: crazyewok

Silly me I thought we were talking about the sanctity of human life,

And the greatest CAUSE of people dying.

So I guess some people really don't want to have an honest discussion.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:54 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Society has a role in that though.

When I was a kid, it was nothing to be able to grab a bike, tell my mom where I was going, and take off and go there. I would ride up to the park which was at least a half mile from my home before I was out of grade school to meet a friend or two who lived at least as far away and we'd play all afternoon there.

If you try that as a parent these days, the cops will haul your kids back and CPS will be all up in your business for child endangerment. Parenting to let your kids experience the world like this has an actual name "Free Range Parenting" when it used to be normal parenting.

These days, you have to schedule play dates for your precious darlings and practically are expected to do background checks on the other parents.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 03:59 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Rough call, as the reasons for shooting are all different. But why is it young men? I think others have hit the nail on the head, don't know how to deal with failure and young people, college included really haven't got a clue as to the real world and what they don't know. They have this certain view of how things should work, most the time they don't. Combine the two, watch out.

Not only should parents embrace failure in their children's life as teaching points to overcome failure, but sometimes, May need to setup failure to have more teaching opportunities. Not mean, it's a basic life tool. Use it, love it, embrace it. But I also think the drugs we prescribe so often is also partly to blame.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin




Now this is not a pro-gun or anti-gun thread


Good. Because the Human condition is the crux of the matter not an inanimate object.

Mass shootings are not exclusive to the US. It has happened worldwide.

Huff Post



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: dezertdog
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin




Now this is not a pro-gun or anti-gun thread


Good. Because the Human condition is the crux of the matter not an inanimate object.

Mass shootings are not exclusive to the US. It has happened worldwide.

Huff Post




But they are not as regular.even accounting for population.

Which means the underlying issue behind it is more entrenched in the USA or comes out in a diffrent form abroad.
edit on 3-10-2015 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 04:25 PM
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So i head off for a while, come back, read through the comments and i got as far as page six before i gave up.

Some of you I think have only read half the OP or for some reason just want to nit pick at the OP with out addressing the main message behind it.

Just encase this is due to some people having problems with reading comprehension let me make very clear the main points behind this thread.

1), As it stand in America gun laws rightly or wrongly are not going to change as such to prevent more senseless deaths the debate has to change from pro-gun vs anti-gun to why are these people driven to commit these horrible crimes.

2). My main argument for that question is that this is a social issue in a specific demographic that is the stereotypical "young white angry man" and therefore we should change the focus of the debate from pro-gun vs anti-gun to how to we help these disillusioned young men.

3). I am also saying this is NOT a mental health issue. While I do agree that in some instances mental health is a significant factor and that more needs to be done to support those with mental illness I do not think that adding to the stigma around mental health by slapping the label on anyone who commits these crimes help. Not everyone who commits these crimes is on mental health meds, the mental health aspect of this is just a tiny part of a larger social issue.

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT GUN CONTROL!



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 04:30 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe




May sound "radical", but if we limited electronics the same way we do alcohol and tobacco I bet the rate of any crime would plummet in a matter of months. Parents no longer take an active role in their kids lives


It does sound radical because it is radical but that is what we need something radical and I think you make a excellent point.

When kids from a young age are learning that they socialise through Facebook they lose the skills of every day face to face social iteration and when they start to require these skills some of them are bound to struggle.

I think it would be really interesting to look as specific research that has been done into this rather than online forum speculation.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 04:43 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Are you trying to be passive by saying it isn't a mental health issue? If you are, I can understand why, because when the government addresses "mental health" as the issue, they REFUSE to address the medication and the money Big Pharm is raking in.

I agree that just because someone is labeled as "mentally ill" that doesn't mean they want to kill other people. Most don't and never will!

But as your OP wanted to address other issues than guns, you seem to be refusing to accept the FACT the drugs and Big Pharm are NOT the issue! People with mental issues *per the opinion of mental health professionals* are given prescriptions for chemicals, with the hope of the alchemical psychiatrist who is relying on the studies of the company who produced that PILL that it will be the answer! Needless to say, most of those drugs have warnings that they might cause homicidal and suicidal tendencies?

If you are refusing to include that in your perception of the needless killings of innocent people, then you might as well blame the gun!



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 04:50 PM
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This problem has nothing to do with the so-called "gun culture".

Men (and women) have owned guns in America forever. Millions of us have been around guns all our lives, yet we never even think about doing something like this.

If it was about the guns, tell me why we don't see some 50 or 60 year old walking into a place and killing a dozen people.

No. This is not a gun problem. This is something much deeper and more sinister.


When boys of that age were young, they played Cowboys 'n Indians, Cops 'n Robbers, and Army. They got outside and wrestled with each other, sometimes fought one another, and next day were best of friends.

Today, the American male is being told to "get in touch with his feminine side" and their natural aggressiveness is being discouraged on many levels. They are chastised, berated, and punished for every little aggressive trait they display.

We have some socially inept boys that are like a boiling pot about to explode.

Sometimes I think the American male is being wussified and socially castrated on purpose to accomplish somebody's agenda to de-masculinize our boys.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I have a problem with your number 2.

You seem to think the problem has only to do with "young angry white men" what about the same issue that is plaguing black communities? Do we just ignore that problem or is that different?



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 05:06 PM
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originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I have a problem with your number 2.

You seem to think the problem has only to do with "young angry white men" what about the same issue that is plaguing black communities? Do we just ignore that problem or is that different?


Diffrent issue but may have the same root cause.

As I said on page one I wonder if it has something in common with the young males in the UK running off to join ISIS.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 05:08 PM
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a reply to: crazyewok




Which means the underlying issue behind it is more entrenched in the USA or comes out in a diffrent form abroad


How is murder a "different form abroad"?

I believe you skirt the core issue Ewok.




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