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Changing the Debate on Guns

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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 06:58 PM
Back to the WHY. What has changed in America in the last 20 years, especially since 2009 when most of the inexplicable mass killings took place?

Social media more prevalent and vicious and intrusive? What else? Let's solve this before Obama and his UN minions decide we have a human rights issue and start sending in the men in blue....

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 07:06 PM
a reply to: crazyewok well u ask me its the same thing,he had an arsenal of weapons that were all legal,u don,t give someone the easy access to an arsenal of weapons then they don,t have the means to carry out mass murder.

do we have easy access to guns in britain for anyone to get hold off? no we don,t, i couldn,t tell u anyone anywhere i know who had a firearm,can u?

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 07:13 PM

originally posted by: sparky31
a reply to: crazyewok well u ask me its the same thing,he had an arsenal of weapons that were all legal,u don,t give someone the easy access to an arsenal of weapons then they don,t have the means to carry out mass murder.

do we have easy access to guns in britain for anyone to get hold off? no we don,t, i couldn,t tell u anyone anywhere i know who had a firearm,can u?

Well....when the bad space aliens land by the hundreds or thousands in your little town and start going door to door to capture you and your family, who is going to protect you when they break down your front door?---Just kidding (I think).
edit on 3-10-2015 by queenofswords because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 07:16 PM
a reply to: sparky31

And yet, I'm sure your criminal element can get them just fine.

Of course, what you fine folks in the UK and Aussie land miss is the fine point of distinction that you live on islands. It makes your countries a tiny bit easier to control.

It would be like you chiding us for still having rabies in our animal population. Well, duh, you say. How hard is it? You just make sure all your animals get the rabies shot. Simple.

Well of course it is when you live on an island and control the animals that come to your island and make sure that no sick ones show up.

You miss the fact that we live in a large nation with a porous southern border overrun by drug smuggling cartels who would be only too happy to add another illicit item to their inventory. You know, we had alcohol deeply entrenched into our culture too and tried to outlaw and turned most of our population into crooks because they simply didn't see beer as bad. We have the same thing with guns. Too many people hunt, know hunters, know people who own a gun or two and have never done anything wrong with them. You would simply be criminalizing almost all of the population and the cartels would be booming in business with people buying that hunting rifle or pistol for their own defense because guns aren't bad and haven't been for over 200 years of our culture.

You aren't going to change that overnight.

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 07:42 PM
a reply to: xuenchen

That, too.

I'm fairly sure that if I were a kid today, I'd be diagnosed with any number of psychological issues. Mostly to do with the fact that when I was a kid, I didn't sit still for long, or seldom did. Especially during the summer...I was never home. Out riding my bike, out playing in gravel pits...cowboys and indians. Army, though the bad guys were rather amorphous...just bad.

Now? It seems that a lot of kids are being diagnosed with issues that even twenty years ago, wouldn't have required anything resembling pharmacological treatment.

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 07:45 PM
a reply to: queenofswords

Vicious? In places, yes... Intrusive? God, yes.

I suppose, like anything else, social media is what you make of it. Except, there's seemingly no getting away from it. Even someone like me, who has no use for it, can't really get away.

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 07:53 PM
a reply to: queenofswords

Just search wussification on ATS and see how many of my posts come up.

I agree whole heartedly.

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 08:12 PM
originally posted by: Xtrozero
originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: neo96

Xtrozero: Have you ever thought that Americans were just a more violent group of people, just as you Brits are a more violent than Japanese? What stops a person in England from performing mass murder, lack of guns?

The Japanese Nation joined the AXIS powers/jumped onto that bandwagon (the existing aggression world domination pact the German Nation created). This is far more serious than random young cry baby males operating, acting out small terrorist actions because they feel disenfranchised for some reason. The British (French, Dutch, Spanish) fleets have not acted as 'overlord' sea faring aggressive colonizing forces for many years (the spice islands are safe).
edit on 3-10-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 09:19 PM
When a crime is expected and as common as it is in the Disunited Failed States of AmeriKKKa, it cannot be tragic; only fait accompli.

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:43 PM

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I don't think mental illness is the problem I think its more of a social problem that there are many young men who feel so isolated and disillusioned that they commit these horrible and evil crimes.

I think if we just dismiss it as a mental health problem we are not fixing it, we need to look deeper and find it why they feel the way they do and what can be done with parents, teachers, the police and their peers to highlight people at risk of this and to help them before they do these horrible things.


If you just admitted that it is an issue where "young men feel isolated and disillusioned that they commit these horrible and evil crimes" then why is the problem the gun? To me the problem is not the gun, while I believe mental illness is high up there and we NEED mental health reforms, I think the problem is more with society as a whole. We have lost our morals, lost our ethics, and most of all our media has devalued life through trashy reality TV and social media has turned people into wolves devouring each other. Teens commit suicide over bullying on facebook. What is wrong with society that we devalue life so much? I think it is a natural effect of political correctness...we tell people (especially men) their speech is wrong, their way of thinking is wrong, their actions are wrong, that to be a man is somehow offensive and against women's rights....we have devalued men and feminized our culture.

So if it is a culture problem, a political correctness run amok problem...why is it guns? Seems to me the UK has some pretty strict laws but you all have high profile terrorists with automatic weapons and bombs...

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 11:03 PM

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I don't think mental illness is the problem I think its more of a social problem that there are many young men who feel so isolated and disillusioned that they commit these horrible and evil crimes.

I think if we just dismiss it as a mental health problem we are not fixing it, we need to look deeper and find it why they feel the way they do and what can be done with parents, teachers, the police and their peers to highlight people at risk of this and to help them before they do these horrible things.


I think you are wrong.....Read this and you will see why..

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 11:16 PM
a reply to: VoidHawk

You and I seldom, if ever, agree.


Miracles do happen. I couldn't agree more, if I wanted to.

Children should be allowed to be children. To learn from their successes, and their mistakes.

Skinned knees teach more than a thousand trophies for just showin' up.

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 11:16 PM
There are so many facets to this issue that I tend to agree with many of the posts here. I think many of the problems mentioned in this thread are acting together as a perfect storm to create individuals who choose to do this.

To nail it down to a single cause is an oversimplification. There is no "catch all". This is also a root to many of the factors that have been mentioned here; oversimplifying the answers is just as bad. And in reality, looking for a cause without taking in all potential factors is a terrible oversight on our part as a society. But, at this point, I am personally not surprised that the majority of people wish to blame a single or a few of the simpler potential causes because it is easier.

I am pleasantly surprised at the discussion thus far. There have been a few detractors, which is a matter of course on the internet, but by and large this has been a very good thread on the issue. I would like to add something which has been bothering me for sometime and I feel is another factor to this disturbing problem of mass shootings.

The fact that we are a society that is divided was mentioned briefly, and I feel that this is a major issue to our state. Civil discourse and "agreeing to disagree" has been completely abandoned in far too many areas. American society has become so pugnacious internally that people are willing to act violently or threaten violence on account of simple differences in opinion. It's as if we are being conditioned to view our fellow Americans as our enemy who is worthy of death for simple differences in opinions. The total lack of respect for opposing views, the immediate hyperbole of the views we disagree with, and indeed the implantation of opposing views where there is no correlation is rampant in American society.

We are living in a massive logical fallacy and the resulting mental effects are rearing their ugly head. In the case of mass murder, there has to be more to it, but I feel that a major root is this division we see inside of our society.
edit on 3-10-2015 by OrdoAdChao because: clarity / punctuation

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 11:30 PM
It's kinda simple to explain all these issues, just look around, I'm sure you've experienced this more now then you would of even 20 years ago.

What I am getting on about is the lack of humans acting humane.

People are social animals, we pick up on such a large amount of non-verbal and verbal communication it's really amazing.

What has happened over the course of the past two decades, is the introduction of electronic mass communication methods, I.e. the internet and social media.

With these two things, we've seen a rise in trolling, expression of many negative forms and a over entrenching feeling that the world is falling apart. While it's not really falling apart, we just can hear about it faster and more frequently.

We people couple these outside signals or perceived events with their own lives, they tend to get this overall opinion that humanity is dying or turning into a bunch of bullies. When in fact it's just the same old joes and janes who you'd hear anyways blabbin at the local store or bar but online. You wouldn't listen to them there but since it's online and you're not that busy, their opinions carry more weight then they should.

Basically people stopped acting like people and are acting like babies, crying to solve problems rather than solving them.

What's the common factor of most of these shootings?

Lone guy without many friends, either no g/f or just lost one, feeling that the world is against them and that no one loves them and views the outside world as the enemy.

Not saying that they're right in any sense, I am saying that many of these situations might never of happened, if people weren't so busy trying to be " post popular " instead of being human.

We're increasingly acting like robotic social vampires rather than thought provoking humane beings.

People need to feel accepted, loved and cared about, when this isn't the case, mental illness sets in, maybe it's not an illness at all, maybe it's a social deficiency.

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 11:39 PM
Here in Canada, guns are hard to get.

There is no "Promotion" about gun, big market ( Wal-mart, "Centre d'achat"/Buying center ? etc etc ) don't sell them.

The closest things would be Canadian Tire selling hunting rifle, even that i never seen it "live".

Having harder Gun laws, less guns circulation. Make it Canada ( THE COUNTRY NEXT TO USA... ) Having RARE AS HELL guns violence.

Criminal use them yes, they even have SMG guns. But having low gun circulation, make it "High-rank criminal" to use it. Like here in Montreal, all gun violence are related to the mafia and HIGH-rank gangs street.

All other "smaller" gangs member fight with knife. Making the dead list very low. ( Most of the victim dont even "snitch" at the police after hopital threatment )

The problems of the USA are :
The easy access of Gun ( Many place sell them, even Wal-Mart )
The guns culture (For some, not owning a gun is stupid. It's a "Vital tool" that your 150yrs old constitution have the right)
GUN LOBBY (The biggest propaganda/Media controlling lobby of the USA are the NRA, many people fall blindly with them)
People think that gun dont kill, people do ( So when a kid kill a grow man, it's a accident from the kid. Not the gun being a overpower tool for killing, a 2yrs would not have the force to kill a adult with a knife )

ALL these problems, make USA doomed. Never a gouvernement could reduce the gun circulation. NEVER. You have more then 350 millions Gun in circulation. Each gun could make a 2yrs old kill a grow man....

The only logical solution, is Technology.

When a compagny will create a non-lethal gun so good, that normal gun become "harder" to use.
A type of "Taser/gun" that can stop someone without even having to aim right.

When this "gun" will come out and be in the public. The laws will get harder on ALL lethal weapon. And NRA couldn't do nothing about it.

They will not be able to argue, because the new lethal gun will be easier/better then their gun + IT WILL NOT KILL PEOPLE.

In meantime, the "civilize world" will check USA killing himself.

+ Dont forget all the suicide by gun.... I KNOW.... If Canada had gun-easy access.. I WOULD BE #IN DEAD BY NOW... I Hate my life in general, but dont find way to easy exit.... If there was a gun in my house i would be SO DEAD... But when i'm happy... i dont regret living...

Lol if i was a USAer i would have shot myself at like 14yrs during a heartbroke xD. So i'm glad to be in Canada.

People in USA need to understand that when you die. You die. Even if you was a good person. So life matter.

GUN = KILLING TOOL. If your gun can't hurt or kill anyone or anything. You gun is broken.

But eh, USA don't like to think about it i think.

+ LOL at hunter talking about ( they will take my gun :'(:'(:'( ) No they wont. Your gun are for killing animal. They are not used for Mass Murder.

posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 11:55 PM
"Dialog", "real change". You hit the gun-ban code words, all right. The real problem is idle, fatherless young men and boys, and seriously underfunded public mental health programs. The example of men who go to work every day and stay out of trouble is what teaches boys how to act like real men and not messed-up losers with no direction in life. We also have a lack of investment in mental health resources and a misguided program of not allowing family members to intervene with those who need help.
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

posted on Oct, 4 2015 @ 12:05 AM
a reply to: seagull

But that's only part of the solution. There is something else in play here that needs identifying, and I'll freely admit, I don't have a clue what it is.

Sorry I didn't come up with this sooner, but it just hit me on what played a major part of early American development.

The 'positive' negative reinforcement of corporal punishment.

People growing up knowing if they screw up their would be consequences.

Hanging Up The Paddle: 20 Years Since Washington Banned Corporal Punishment In Public Schools

I think this played a larger part than people realized.

Since it has gradually been phased out.

Mass shootings have become more common.

This just might be that one thing your looking for.

posted on Oct, 4 2015 @ 12:39 AM
The second amendment was put in there as a safeguard against government going evil and out of control after 9-11 and the Global financial crisis its obvious this will never happen so you may as well repeal it,I dont expect this post to last and I may even get a point fine for it but the truth is under Obama moral cowardice has permeated the entire system,good men did nothing and your manifest destiny is not going to be pleasant.

posted on Oct, 4 2015 @ 03:39 AM
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I have given a lot of thought about this. Guns have been in our society since it was founded. However, even when I was in school long ago we might get into a fist fight, but no one went off to get their weapons and shoot up a bunch of innocent people. However, one thing did change in our society since the young people started going ballistic. And if you think the gun lobby is bad, just look at the pharmaceutical lobby.

These kids, most of them that eventually go ballistic and do a mass killing, have been given all sorts of psychoactive drugs when they are going through development of their brains. These brain chemical altering substances create the problem that they never learned how to deal with depression, anxiety, and many other mental health issues. It has become standard practice to prescribe a drug for every little mood disorder or problem. That is one of the problems with trying to tackle the real problem in my opinion. The pharmaceutical industry and doctors have written and made extensive changes to the DSM (Diagnostics & Statistical Manual for Mental health issues). They have added and come up with a disorder for every drug class they can come out with. Now some of these people may really need to be medicated if they have a severe condition. But today people get a drug for every little thing it seems. I was talking about it with a pharmaceutical regional manager (retired now) in my family. When he was growing up and when I was, there were no drugs given to the majority of kids except the truly out of control ones. Now, every child has to sit quietly in school and not act out, too much energy you get a drug. Depressed you get a drug. Have anxiety you get a drug. The problem is these kids never develop the tools most of the older adults have of learning to deal with depression. It comes and goes. No one is happy all the time.

The problem comes in when you give these drugs early in life to children that never learn to deal with stress, anxiety, etc. the natural way we all used to. Then they become adults and find out not everyone gets a trophy and life is a bitch. They can't handle it and explode. It may not be all kids, but we don;t know when it is going to go wrong because no one has studied the issue. Sure certain people that have problems that we might recognize in development are now being altered by a drug and we don't know little Johnny is a psychopath in development.

And when you mix multiple drugs, or mix one with illegal drugs the problem is just compounded. I believe this is why we are seeing this in this generation. We used to do all the same things, but our generation did not get an A on every test, or a trophy.. We learned about competition early and we were better prepared for adult life. Problem today is kids live in a fairy tale lie given to them by adults, teachers, and doctors. Both parents have to work to make it in life today and don't have the time to really see the issues with the kids and often if there is one, it is covered by a drug. A quick fix and no more problem, until later.

Guns will never be gone out of society. The EU with their strict no guns allowed laws are finding out that gun control is not working with the jihadis over there. They are better armed than the police. That is because criminals do not follow the law. And while the US isn't needing to import guns, they are smuggled into the EU. In Belgium, rookie police are sent out into the street during training to buy an AK47 and most complete the task within 2 hours. People think baning guns in the US will make gun deaths go away. It won't, just like the illegal drugs are not gone off the street. They will come in, probably in full automatic variety along with the dope smuggled in. Criminals will get them. And the problem today is that the government does not know how many guns are out there. For a long time they weren't tracked from the gun store. There were weapons brought home from wars, there are people (I know a couple) that make guns like the AR-15 and these don't have serial numbers or any way to be tracked. Are you going to remove all the metal lathes and punch presses from society as well?

The problem is that guns are here to stay for one. I don't care what laws you pass or how many you try to confiscate. They are buried in large PVC tubes everywhere just so they are there if they are needed. Is the government going to dig up the countryside? Not a chance. So, by grabbing guns, you will only make crime easier and more brazen. Then you will be feeling like you are in a 3rd world country.

This is why when you look at cities with the strictest gun laws, like Chicago since our President is from there, they are the worst for gun violence. You only keep the good people from fending them off or at least being equal to their attackers. So, making the whole country like Chicago is not going to help. And like others have mentioned, the determined actor will just resort to building bombs, or something else. It's not like you can't figure out how to make them with common chemicals found in every hardware store with the internet available.

We have to find the source of the problem. What is making these people go off. I see two reasons. Either the drug issue, or religious extremism which is mostly done by muslims as far as terrorist attacks go today. The Oregon shooter had a lot of connections to muslim extremists after reviewing his myspace site's friends. Don't expect this administration to admit they were muslim extremists either. Just like the one that shot up Ft, Hood was workplace violence.

If people don't get over the BS PC crap and start calling things the way they are, you will never get to the source of whatever issue you are trying to talk about. The PC crowd doesn't realize the PC tool was developed to tie up the language to describe problems with certain issues. Most normal people aren't even educated enough to see there is a problem and accept that attacks like Ft. Hood were workplace violence and not the fact the guy was a muslim extremist. Just look at any vide of reporters going out in the street to ask fellow Americans what they celebrate the 4th of July for, or what countries border the US. It is quite alarming at the ignorace of so many Americans. But, that is part of the dumbing down of America program.

So, we have to look at the root causes and I gave you my opinion on what the root cause was.
In engineering we do 'root cause failure analysis' when something breaks down. That way we can repair not only the failure, but prevent it from happening again.

Gun control is all feel good but impractical in our society. Most honest police officers will tell you they are not here to protect you. That is your job. They come after the fact in most instances. And in our reality, that means you better be able to protect yourself and in America that means a gun. You also have to realize that a lot of the anti-gun people don't live in the same America the majority of us do. But if you live in a gated community or on a golf course, you probably don't understand what it is like in the cities, or in low income or even many middle class areas. People only know their experiences. Find the ROOT CAUSE and I think you will stop these mass shootings. Drug inhibited developing minds and Extremism imho.

posted on Oct, 4 2015 @ 02:08 PM
There are already lots and lots of serious papers written on the subject

I like this one a lot because its from a country which doesnt have much of a pro-gun anti gun debate going on:

just use a search engine to find more

edit on 4-10-2015 by MrMasterMinder because: (no reason given)

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