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Changing the Debate on Guns

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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 09:46 AM
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A few days ago, there was a tragic shooting again in America where again a young man has gunned downed his class mates. And again like always the debate about more gun regulation vs less gun regulation rages one with an impotent Obama seeming powerless to do anything in the face of the Gun lobbies influence over congress.

Now this is not a pro-gun or anti-gun thread, this is something different, first however let me just make my own views clear. I am from the UK, I do not own a gun, I do believe the second amendment of the US Constitution is important and should be maintained yet at the same time I also believe that more gun regulation is required and the laws changed. Now yes I know some of you will want to debate my views, tell me that “rights” should not be subject to the “laws” the government creates and so on but my views on guns are not the point of this debate.

No the point of this debate is to change the dialogue of the debate, to move away from pro-gun vs anti-gun to find some common ground on which to start building the foundations for real change to happen. There is zero political appetite with elections around the corner for any changes to gun laws in America. Many members of the public are also strongly opposed to any kind of change. However when you consider that now shootings are becoming almost monthly occurrence then I am sure both can agree that there must be something wrong.

Some in the past have tried to argue that this is a mental health issue. While I do not dispute that this is a contributing factor I think to label every mass-shooter as suffering mental health problems only adds to the stigma of mental health and will eventually lead to more social problems. I do think that more support for mental wellbeing would help with the problem but I do not think it is the fundamental answer.

I think what needs to be looked at more closely is why this is happening. If we look at the demographic of the shooters they are almost always young, white, males ages between 16 – 26, some older, one I read about recently as young as 14. What strikes me when I read about these young men after the event is always the same. The biography usually depicts a young man who felt like a “outsider” who was “quiet”, who may have spent much of his time alone, isolated, felt like he was being judged by his peers. They almost now fall into a stereotype in my view, and that stereotype is of a young angry white man (please do not think I am making this about race I am generalising).

With that said then and if the option of stricter gun laws in the US is not a viable option then surely the debate should move from pro-gun vs anti-gun to a debate seeking to find out why these young men are acting the way they do. We should be investing in training for identifying young men at risk, educating parents, promoting fuller inclusion of all students at schools and collages having more teacher involvement and dare I say it police involvement. There may even be wider cultural influences over these young men that glorify violence or justify their actions as somehow being the “right” or “only” thing to do.

Anyway just some thoughts I figured I would shear.




posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 09:50 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
I think what needs to be looked at more closely is why this is happening. If we look at the demographic of the shooters they are almost always young, white, males ages between 16 – 26, some older, one I read about recently as young as 14. What strikes me when I read about these young men after the event is always the same. The biography usually depicts a young man who felt like a “outsider” who was “quiet”, who may have spent much of his time alone, isolated, felt like he was being judged by his peers. They almost now fall into a stereotype in my view, and that stereotype is of a young angry white man (please do not think I am making this about race I am generalising).

With that said then and if the option of stricter gun laws in the US is not a viable option then surely the debate should move from pro-gun vs anti-gun to a debate seeking to find out why these young men are acting the way they do.


Very good points. I would also like to see how many of them had a history of mental illness and were proscribed some sort of pharmacological substance as treatment.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 09:54 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I don't think mental illness is the problem I think its more of a social problem that there are many young men who feel so isolated and disillusioned that they commit these horrible and evil crimes.

I think if we just dismiss it as a mental health problem we are not fixing it, we need to look deeper and find it why they feel the way they do and what can be done with parents, teachers, the police and their peers to highlight people at risk of this and to help them before they do these horrible things.

I


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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 09:56 AM
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There was something like 50 people shot in Chicago last weekend, why don't you talk about that, don't black lives matter? Or maybe you and the media avoid it because the guns are illegally aquired by thugs that would never obey any gun laws, hence making more law abiding citizens vulnerable. Don't believe the hype!



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 09:57 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I don't think mental illness is the problem I think its more of a social problem that there are many young men who feel so isolated and disillusioned that they commit these horrible and evil crimes.


There are always people who are going to feel that they do not belong, I am concerned that the quick fix is to pill them and send them on their way.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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originally posted by: jaws1975
There was something like 50 people shot in Chicago last weekend, why don't you talk about that, don't black lives matter? Or maybe you and the media avoid it because the guns are illegally aquired by thugs that would never obey any gun laws, hence making more law abiding citizens vulnerable. Don't believe the hype!


All life matters.

I think that if the media are not reporting on this and are not highlighting this enough then that is a separate issue.

Its not my fault that such a serious topic does not get the attention it deserves.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:00 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I don't think mental illness is the problem I think its more of a social problem that there are many young men who feel so isolated and disillusioned that they commit these horrible and evil crimes.


There are always people who are going to feel that they do not belong, I am concerned that the quick fix is to pill them and send them on their way.


Totally agree.

Giving them a pill hopping it will brighten them up or whatever, yet does not actually get to the source of their problem providing a long term fix.


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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:01 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


I have to agree with this.
The mass shootings always have two things in common, depression drugs and gun free zones.


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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

It's not a separate issue, it's how they further an anti gun agenda. Ignore the gun violence that won't change with new gun laws, and beat us over the head 24/7 these isolated shootings that will.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Rarely do you or I agree on much, but I agree 100% with your premise.

Mental health IS and issue, but we first must look at how the mental health industry pumps out pills to everyone who feels depressed. Just because a child may act different than other children does not mean they need to see a doctor for behavioral issues. Think of Beethoven, Isaac Newton, etc etc.

Take a look at the possible side effects of these drugs and whether or not the answer was to put a child on these meds in the first place at an age where their brain is still developing.

Then we also have to look at how our youth are being socially conditioned to be winners in their child hood development, to only be released into a world where the majority of us feel like a blind squirrel trying to find a nut. Child hood suicide?

My last thought on this would be trusting what most of us can admit, a corrupt government who has the ability to dictate almost ANYTHING as a mental illness.


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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:11 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

For one thing, culture is doing its best to train boys away from being boys. Look at the way we treat them. They are being feminized in behavior. Culture is trying its best to homogenize the genders and the way they behave.

This is a mistake. Boys are simply different from girls and will behave differently, learn differently.

Maybe they feel alienated because they need to be men and society has few acceptable outlets for that?

Honestly, we do not idolize guns or watch hyper violent movies or let our child do so, but the very thing our non-vehicle thing our son created with his LEGOs was a gun. What do you do? We praised him for it, for the creativity, and went on. He proceeded to pretend to be a bird or something. The gun creation was forgotten.


edit on 3-10-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:12 AM
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I was saying on another thread.

I wondering there is a relation to the angry young mean joining isis.

Once you remove religion they have a similar theme.

Young adults or teenagers

Male

From normally middle class backgrounds

Quiet or "nice" before they snap

Both abandon freinds and family

They choose to spread hatred and death

Sucide is normally a end result.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:13 AM
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a reply to: seeker1963



Mental health IS and issue


Ok from my OP.



While I do not dispute that this is a contributing factor I think to label every mass-shooter as suffering mental health problems only adds to the stigma of mental health and will eventually lead to more social problems


I am not saying that these young angry kids are shooting people because they are depressed or because they are medicated or anything else to do with mental illness.

I am saying this, again from the OP:



We should be investing in training for identifying young men at risk, educating parents, promoting fuller inclusion of all students at schools and collages having more teacher involvement and dare I say it police involvement. There may even be wider cultural influences over these young men that glorify violence or justify their actions as somehow being the “right” or “only” thing to do.


This is not a mental health issue its more of a social and cultural issue.

Let me be clear, I am in no way saying that mental illness is the cause of all these shootings, I think the cause is much much deeper and dismissing it as a mental health issue is not helping anyone. Yes at times mental health is a big factor but its not the only factor. Millions of people are depressed, but i don't see many 40 year old mums who have been medicated for 20 years shooting up their place of work.

I see this as a social issue not a mental health issue.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:15 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

For one thing, culture is doing its best to train boys away from being boys. Look at the way we treat them. They are being feminized in behavior. Culture is trying its best to homogenize the genders and the way they behave.

This is a mistake. Boys are simply different from girls and will behave differently, learn differently.

Maybe they feel alienated because they need to be men and society has few acceptable outlets for that?



I disagree 100%

At least from the point of view from someone living in the UK, I don't know if that's a problem in America but its not something I can empathise with.

I also don't see how this would increase gun crime amongst this demographic.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:15 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Medicated because they aren't allowed an outlet and expression for who and what they are which is male.

They are even trying to take sports away that aren't "safe" enough.


edit on 3-10-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:16 AM
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originally posted by: jaws1975
There was something like 50 people shot in Chicago last weekend, why don't you talk about that, don't black lives matter? Or maybe you and the media avoid it because the guns are illegally aquired by thugs that would never obey any gun laws, hence making more law abiding citizens vulnerable. Don't believe the hype!


The thread is not about gun control



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:17 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Medicated because they aren't allowed an outlet and expression for who and what they are which is male.

They are even trying to take sports away that aren't "safe" enough.



Totally disagree with you as I have already said.


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posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:18 AM
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a reply to: seeker1963

I was looking up characteristics of gifted children. They tend to be very energetic and active. It is often misdiagnosed as ADD or ADHD.

Parents are not being parents and looking for the easy solution and doctors don't have the time or energy to really work out what the actual problem is and schools do not have the latitude to understand what is a real problem and what is just a bored child who needs challenge.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:18 AM
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I had a thread here where we discussed this subject and some very good thoughts came out. If you look deeper into this, it's a lot of things. This didn't used to happen, so what changed? Parenting, what kids do with their free time, how our society views the lives of others. This has festered for a long time and it seems to be getting worse exponentially. I doubt we can fix this overnight, but we need to be discussing the real problems. Always focusing on guns and ending the talk there isn't working.

ETA: one subject that is difficult to talk about is suicide. The system in place to help someone with these thoughts and feelings is broken badly. If you have lost a family member to this, you know all too well. And the media immortalizing the killer seems to be a driving force to be "somebody".

The current situation of praising the hero and not even mentioning the killers name on TV is a great start IMHO.
edit on 3-10-2015 by network dude because: Augustusmasonicus drinks blatz warm, and washes it down with a Milwaukees Best.



posted on Oct, 3 2015 @ 10:21 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

There is research out there, and in the UK, I don't see you doing the same things our education system is doing here. I don't have time to look it up, but the current US classroom model is patterned more off of female learning styles and behavior. If boys can't fit themselves into it, they are treated as having problems.

This was done because the classroom was recently perceived as hostile to girls, so things were changed to get more girls into certain areas of learning. The result was that boys were left on the outside looking in some ways.

All boy schools tend to have an easier time.

www.esquire.com...


By the time they reach high school, nearly 20 percent of all American boys will be diagnosed with ADHD. Millions of those boys will be prescribed a powerful stimulant to "normalize" them. A great many of those boys will suffer serious side effects from those drugs. The shocking truth is that many of those diagnoses are wrong, and that most of those boys are being drugged for no good reason—simply for being boys. It's time we recognize this as a crisis.


As the mother of a very active boy, you can understand that I have a very personal stake in this.
edit on 3-10-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



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