Where did the innocence go? Mass Shooting question.

originally posted by: olaru12

Depressing but great thread!!

no doubt, but the conversation here is epic in my opinion. This is what needs to be talked about I think.
I learned to accept responsibility for my actions and deal with the repercussions of them. So if this comes down to bad parenting, then I am as guilty as all others. I need to accept that and find a way to fix it.

And I do see that as a big part. I was given all I needed to survive, and that was about it. The stuff I wanted had to be earned. I had a job delivering papers at 12 so I could buy the things I wanted, since nobody was going to just give me stuff.

I have spoiled my kids with more than they needed. I just wish I knew what to do to start fixing it.

thanks to all that posted so far.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: olaru12

Depressing but great thread!!

I have spoiled my kids with more than they needed. I just wish I knew what to do to start fixing it.

.

imo...it's to late to fix anything. The line it is drawn and the curse it is cast...

All we can do now is live one day at a time and let the cultural cycles play themselves out.

To save my sanity, I now have to just be an observer. I once was a political activist, idealistic with faith in the system.

That has proven to be a huge waste of time and an exercise in futility. There are powerful forces at work here that we can't even begin to understand. Surreal, metaphysical and mysterious....and we are but pawns in their game!

I think the movie fight club had a lot of truth in.
They answer your op.

a reply to: network dude

This might be touchy.

The difference between the US and other countries, The Suicide......

The same amount of people from what ever country commit suicide.

People go depressed, wants to commit suicide, and in the end they succeed, not all but some.

Here comes the difference.

In other countries, they kill them self, jobs done.

In the US they see an easy chance to show their anger by displaying them self, buy a gun or acquire it illegally, and shoot as many as you can, dying in the process.

It's a suicide with a desperate message in the US.....

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: olaru12

Depressing but great thread!!

I have spoiled my kids with more than they needed. I just wish I knew what to do to start fixing it.

.

imo...it's to late to fix anything. The line it is drawn and the curse it is cast...

All we can do now is live one day at a time and let the cultural cycles play themselves out.

To save my sanity, I now have to just be an observer. I once was a political activist, idealistic with faith in the system.

That has proven to be a huge waste of time and an exercise in futility. There are powerful forces at work here that we can't even begin to understand. Surreal, metaphysical and mysterious....and we are but pawns in their game!

Wow. Olaru. Sadly enough I see it as do you. There was a day when I marched, a day when I harangued, a day when I shouted warnings of a future I did not want to see. And now it is here.

- 8+ billion people crowded onto this rock
- increasing socioeconomic pressures in the US (drought, joblessness, social change)
- a 24 hour news beast that salivates in line with the notion of "if it leads it bleeds" crawling the newsfeeds for new murderers to enshrine as infamous heroes.


I am a true believer in "idle hands are the devils playground" (look at Saudi Arabia and other areas where unemployment is high, or where reliance on government welfare is high). Men without purpose find purpose, and it isn't always good. And now you can be given audience, and be talked about, by doing the most horrible things.

I think a lot of it comes down to the modern approach to parenting and raising children where everyone is told they are equal and their is no such thing as losing or that everyone is a winner.

Those children get older and someone breaks their heart or they get rejected from something or they get fired from a job and they snap.

It's important to know what losing feels like as a kid because it is an important part of growing up. You shouldn't get an award for finishing last in some sports tournament, you should use finishing last as motivation to want to make yourself or team better. Yet frequently in the modern world parents don't do that so children get unrealistic expectations set which in turn can result in horrible reactions when reality shows up.

Like any bad thing in life there are multiple things that contribute to an outcome but the above is something I do not understand right now.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
It's a couple things in my opinion.

Kids are all told today that they are special and when they discover that they are not, they can't handle the reality. Then the mental problems start.

That leads to the second problem. Anti depression drugs. So many of these shooters are on drugs for depression.

That's my take on the subject. I will be interested to hear other opinions..

Your post reminded me of this article I had read the other day, about how colleges are struggling to deal with what they call declining student resilience. Basically all those years of everyone gets a trophy have come home to roost. Perhaps some can't cope when faced with how the world really works and what is expected, perhaps it becomes a variable.

Students are increasingly seeking help for, and apparently having emotional crises over, problems of everyday life. Recent examples mentioned included a student who felt traumatized because her roommate had called her a “bitch” and two students who had sought counseling because they had seen a mouse in their off-campus apartment. The latter two also called the police, who kindly arrived and set a mousetrap for them.

Two weeks ago, that head of Counseling sent us all a follow-up email, announcing a new set of meetings. His email included this sobering paragraph:

“I have done a considerable amount of reading and research in recent months on the topic of resilience in college students. Our students are no different from what is being reported across the country on the state of late adolescence/early adulthood. There has been an increase in diagnosable mental health problems, but there has also been a decrease in the ability of many young people to manage the everyday bumps in the road of life. Whether we want it or not, these students are bringing their struggles to their teachers and others on campus who deal with students on a day-to-day basis. The lack of resilience is interfering with the academic mission of the University and is thwarting the emotional and personal development of students.”

He also sent us a summary of themes that emerged in the series of meetings, which included the following bullets:

Less resilient and needy students have shaped the landscape for faculty in that they are expected to do more handholding, lower their academic standards, and not challenge students too much.

There is a sense of helplessness among the faculty. Many faculty members expressed their frustration with the current situation. There were few ideas about what we could do as an institution to address the issue.

Students are afraid to fail; they do not take risks; they need to be certain about things. For many of them, failure is seen as catastrophic and unacceptable. External measures of success are more important than learning and autonomous development.

Faculty, particularly young faculty members, feel pressured to accede to student wishes lest they get low teacher ratings from their students. Students email about trivial things and expect prompt replies.

Failure and struggle need to be normalized. Students are very uncomfortable in not being right. They want to re-do papers to undo their earlier mistakes. We have to normalize being wrong and learning from one’s errors.

Faculty members, individually and as a group, are conflicted about how much “handholding” they should be doing.
Growth is achieved by striking the right balance between support and challenge. We need to reset the balance point. We have become a “helicopter institution.”

www.psychologytoday.com...

a reply to: network dude

Excellent OP! S&F for you!

I'm a little older (early 50's) and I made a very similar observation on another thread. Back in our youth we had all the same weapons, but events such as these were unheard of. They just didn't happen. Firearms certainly aren't new, so what's changed...

- There was no internet back then. There was the outdoors and real human beings for friends (not a keyboard)

- The only video games were at the arcade, or maybe 'pong' (but that lasted for like 5 minutes).

- Cellphones, texting, sexting and the like didn't exist.

- Social media didn't exist (FB, twitter, instagram, youtube, etc.)

- First person gaming didn't exist.

- Not everyone got a trophy (for just showing up).

- Kids actually existed because parents wanted them, not because they were a status symbol or a measure of success in suburbia.

- Parents actually 'parented' kids. They actually spent time with them, they liked them and they wanted to be around them. Now, they just drop them off at school, soccer practice and any other function they can dream up to get the kids out of their hair. ...so they can go log into FB themselves.

- Kids actually rode the bus WITH OTHER KIDS (or they walked...with other kids), to and from school.

- Kids had real friends, actual people they could reach out and touch.

- Self worth for kids wasn't defined by how many "likes" they got on FB or Youtube.

- Kids didn't live in a world were everything had to be completely sterile and politically correct.

- Kids lived in a world where if two kids had an issue between them they worked it out. Even if this meant out behind the school at lunchtime. And, when two kids duked it out it wasn't the end of creation as we know it. Cops and attorneys didn't get involved.

- Bullying was the mean kid down the street who eventually got knocked off his pedestal the old fashioned way. A bully was NOT some keyboard commando on the internet who required the FBI to get involved in finding.

- Kids could go play outside. Kids didn't wear 5 layers of body armor to go ride their bike.

- Strollers weren't as big as SUV's and weren't a status symbol of their own.

- Kids went trick-or-treating by themselves after the age of 6. Kids didn't go trick-or-treating at 17...with a parental escort.

- Junior didn't live at home until he was 43.

- Kids got jobs and actually worked...alongside real people. AND, if they did a good job they got promoted, if they didn't they got fired.

- (The list goes on)

People generally go crazy in solitary confinement for a reason. Self imposed solitary confinement only leads to antisocial, disassociated, young adults who don't know how to conduct themselves in the real world...around real people. There is no distinction between real life and fantasy, the boundary lines are blurred. They act out they same way they act out in video games not comprehending that there's no "start over" button.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I agree with all of that. Thanks for offering your perspective.
I wish we could go back to that simpler time. ( I wonder how many generations have said that?)

If I were to summarize all of that, or pick what I feel is the most responsible, I would have to say I feel first person video games and social media are the two most responsible differences between current and previous generations. And here's why...

1. Modern parents use video games as a pacifier. Make the kid shut-up, go away and be quiet. What I don't think parents truly realize is how addictive these games are, even the non-violent ones. The majority of kids formative years are spent on some kind of an electronic device. Their perception of the world is based almost exclusively on what that particular device tells them, not necessarily on reality. Self worth is based on a game score. Case in point, just look at the effect the game World of Warcraft has had on adolescent youth. It's not a "game" to them, it's an all-consuming "culture". It's an entire lifestyle. This is but one example among many others.

2. I don't think parents realize or appreciate how far social media has been integrated into many of these games. Kids are no longer just playing a game against some robotic opponent, they're playing against an opponent across the internet, one possibly from a different country, a different culture. They're learning about cultural differences via these games not through the educational system. Consequently, they feel more 'worldly' than they really are. Social media like FB and others are also heavily integrated into these games. Kids are interacting, talking, texting (etc) with other kids (and manytimes adults). And that's another thing, kids should be kids, they should interact with other kids. Many of these modern first person games are chocked full of adult players, kids and everything in between. And some of these players have already gone over the proverbial edge. They are disassociated themselves, possibly unstable, holed up in some darkened room playing these games non-stop. Kids are interacting with these people in real-time (live voice, text). Opinions are going to get expressed, ideas put out there, cultural and ideological references brought forward. Kids are exposed to all of this with these games.

I really believe this has a lot to do with some of the anti-social behaviours of kids and adolescents today.