The Fall of the EU?

The EU is a force for antidemocracy/dictatorship; it cannot exist without trampling over the precepts of democracy.

I think, I hope, I pray that Europeans are waking up to this reality.

I was surprised at the speed with which some countries gave up their currency & sovereignty and allowed Brussels to dictate legislation. Back in 1975 when we were all conned into joining the Common Market (as it was then) with promises of cheap imports easier exports and simply a utopia for business, we were told that we would not be dictated to from Europe and it would bring complete stability in the economy. Well, that didn't work so then came the Maastricht Treat with the goal of one common everything from currency to weights & measures to the shape of our bananas! The biggest mistake Greece made was joining the EU who now have Greece by the short & curlies big time. Norway didn't need to join as they were financially stable due to their own oil with a tiny unemployment figure and of course like Greenland & the Faroe Islands they are members of the International Whaling Commission something the EU had banned for all EU countries.Norway is connected to the EU however through the European Free Trade Association, but as a non member is under no obligation to accept any quota of refugees.

One of the most noticeable problems with the EU utopia is that the poorer members, even after being in the EU some years now like Poland, have failed to bridge the gap between the richer nations and this has left countries like Croatia Poland and Greece indebted to the Union with little hope of repayment to which the EU's answer is austerity measures, which mean no rise in the standard of living for the countries, which of course means they remain the poorest.

Now these already poor debt ridden countries are being asked to take thousands of refugees, house them feed them find them employment take care of their health etc and the strain for some countries like Croatia and the Slavic countries (the already poor ex satellites of the old USSR) These countries will be the flashpoints with the richer ones denying there's a problem, and while the richer EU members all sit around the table wringing their hands, the smaller poorer countries will basically go to the dogs and I believe go it alone

Yeah nice post but...
sweden will get aprox 350000 refugees this year alone.

I'm moving my family to norway or iceland next year.

This is scary:

Scabies is rife and 1 in 4 refugees have tested positive for HepC. The anti immigration vote is now rocketing which is probaby just as well as recent reports state that the majority of the refugees don't want to remain in Italy in any event but go on to Germany or Sweden.

a reply to: yeahsurexxx

Yup for some reason best known to the Swedish Government, they agreed to the EU quotas and then some but I think they are going to seriously regret it on an economic and on a personal basis. At some point Sweden is going to have to make a stand before its population get more restless. I don't believe any one EU country has the resources to cope with the sheer numbers which don't show much signs of alleviating

The Merkel media machine has seriously given those in poorer ME & African countries a false sense of the real conditions in Europe. It is not Nirvana the streets are not lined with gold welfare jobs and free housing and for those legally entering, there is a lot of red tape and paperwork to go through. The reason so many are now upping and leaving Turkey is that Turkey is not a rich country and the media coverage and promises made by the EU has meant that those that were awaiting legal asylum or immigration are now jumping the queues and those that were settled in Turkey feel badly done by and also want to live in this utopian Garden of Eden. The reality hits them when they end up in Croatia Serbia Romania or Czech Republic. These countries are not much better off than the countries the migrants left and have their own internal strife and conflicts with poverty and austerity. So the refugees refuse to stay and yell and beg to go to Germany & Sweden based on the promises of those Governments of an easier time and better living conditions, meaning double or triple the numbers of refugees now in those countries with the knock on effect of tension, poor living conditions in camps, opposing grouups thrown together into one big melting pot

We the little people on the ground floor can only watch now and see how it all unfolds and for most of us pray that our countries do exit the EU so we are able to apply our own solutions and standards and laws in finding a solution. I feel firmly that the EU has failed politically and economically with the biggest richest countries having the power and the littlest bowing to their perceived supremacy which was NOT what the EU was originally intended for

What is probably unknown to many, and certainly was to me until I started investigating it all, was that this refugee crisis has been long standing, not something that has only occurred since the Syrian War in 2011. The truth is that the EU hid the crisis for a long time, and most surprisingly of all paid Ghadaffi of Libya to intercept refugees and keep them from Europe. As one article says

Qaddafi was something like Europe's bouncer, helping to keep the potentially significant number of African migrants and refugees from ever reaching the continent. His methods were terrible: Libya imprisoned migrants in camps where rape and torture were widespread. But Europe was happy to have someone else worrying about the problem

Europe's Refugee Crisis

Once Gaddafi's fell the way was once again open, dangerous but open to refugees to start their journey into Europe with many not necessarily fleeing the ravages of war, but fleeing the disgusting disease ridden & violent refugee camps in the ME and North Africa. These already weakened people are now in Europe, and I am not scaremongering when I say this, this is fact, they are bringing with them common camp diseases and infections like scabies and HIV spread by the persistent rapes as well as tb, std's and diseases associated with lack of hygiene facilities such as chronic diarrhea. Many medical agencies are at a loss as to how to combat this without necessary funding and equipment.

The United Nations has stated that cholera jaundice and malaria are all threatening these camps and cases of HepC and HepE are now being reported
Disease In Camps

So there is added pressure on countries' Health Services all of whom are of course expected to give assistance for free but for some who's health service is already underfunded understaffed and overused, this will make the crisis ten times worse.

At first, I thought there was a conspiracy, now I think there was just bad management and stupidity

I can't believe Sweden is taking in more immigrants after this:

In 2003, Sweden's rape statistics were higher than average at 9.24, but in 2005 they shot up to 36.8 and by 2008 were up to 53.2. Now they are almost certainly even higher as Muslim immigrants continue forming a larger percentage of the population.

With Muslims represented in as many as 77 percent of the rape cases and a major increase in rape cases paralleling a major increase in Muslim immigration, the wages of Muslim immigration are proving to be a sexual assault epidemic by a misogynistic ideology.

www.frontpagemag.com...

a reply to: StoutBroux

Yes its a problem that unfortunately the EU and Sweden itself have been trying to brush under the carpet. Sweden decided to become multicultural in 1975 and since that time crime & rape has increased by 300%, however, the Swedish Government have been quick to find excuses/reasons for this citing Swedes are more likely to report crime, Swedish men feel unequal since womens' equality and take their frustrations out on the women and the law is now classifying more sex crimes as rape..thus the high figures. We know and they know that isn't actually true and now I think they are feeling the consequences of their foray into multi culturalism which was very much encouraged by the EU through the freedom of movement Act

It should be mentioned and understood however, that as far as rape goes, there are cultures where it is accepted and very nearly considered the norm and to a point part of everyday life. It has been reported in Sweden that some immigrant men when charged with rape are shocked and believe they are being victims of racism as they truly don't understand what the big deal is.

If the EU is seriously going to deal with this and other issues, then they must instigated a cultural education policy mandatory for all immigrants to those countries far removed from their own. Further, in my humble opinion, people should be distributed carefully so as to gently force integration, not all lumped together in one huge area and thereby create ghettos and no go areas where the immigrants can continue their own way of life instead of adopting the way of life of their new country. We cannot force people to abandon their cultures but they should at least accept the basics of life in the country they are now living in and abide by that cultures' rules and for this a global programme of education is urgently needed before the melting pot boils over into chaos

Bunch of paid workers feeding nationalism out there, "my country, your country, their country, those countries, Slavic countries, EU countries,..."
Nationalism is an eternal illusion for dump people or for wise and selfish people.

a reply to: fate7
dump or dumb. What country you from dumper

a reply to: yeahsurexxx
Just like refugee we move away from areas that are not condusive to our way of life. WHY?

I'm certainly voting for the UK to leave the EU in our upcoming referendum.
Since Germany made a mess of the migrant situation, encouraging folk to use dangerous methods of travel to get to the EU, I have seen many people reach the same decision as well, in fact, in my social circles I don't know anyone who wants us to stay in the EU.
Except my Polish, Czech, and Slovak friends here of course, but they don't have the vote so their choice is irrelevant.
Personally I don't care what happens to the EU, I just want the UK to be a sovereign nation again, and current polls look like that is what will happen.

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
a reply to: yeahsurexxx

Yup for some reason best known to the Swedish Government, they agreed to the EU quotas and then some but I think they are going to seriously regret it on an economic and on a personal basis. At some point Sweden is going to have to make a stand before its population get more restless. I don't believe any one EU country has the resources to cope with the sheer numbers which don't show much signs of alleviating

The Merkel media machine has seriously given those in poorer ME & African countries a false sense of the real conditions in Europe. It is not Nirvana the streets are not lined with gold welfare jobs and free housing and for those legally entering, there is a lot of red tape and paperwork to go through. The reason so many are now upping and leaving Turkey is that Turkey is not a rich country and the media coverage and promises made by the EU has meant that those that were awaiting legal asylum or immigration are now jumping the queues and those that were settled in Turkey feel badly done by and also want to live in this utopian Garden of Eden. The reality hits them when they end up in Croatia Serbia Romania or Czech Republic. These countries are not much better off than the countries the migrants left and have their own internal strife and conflicts with poverty and austerity. So the refugees refuse to stay and yell and beg to go to Germany & Sweden based on the promises of those Governments of an easier time and better living conditions, meaning double or triple the numbers of refugees now in those countries with the knock on effect of tension, poor living conditions in camps, opposing grouups thrown together into one big melting pot

We the little people on the ground floor can only watch now and see how it all unfolds and for most of us pray that our countries do exit the EU so we are able to apply our own solutions and standards and laws in finding a solution. I feel firmly that the EU has failed politically and economically with the biggest richest countries having the power and the littlest bowing to their perceived supremacy which was NOT what the EU was originally intended for

First off, Kosovo is not a Baltic state, it is ex-Yugoslav.
Second, once you researched all these countries so informatively (star and flag), you could research the Turkish scenario with more depth.

Turkey is not issuing its two million plus refugees work permits. From recent local reports (by Hungarian journalists with Turkish and Arab interpreters - index.hu but it is pretty useless to give a source here in Hungarian) I know that the work permits issued by Turkey amount to a few tens of thousands out of millions of people. Syrians work illegally and underpaid sometimes. Occasionally they even operate businesses from their own capital with Turks raking in the money for protection.

No Arab language education in Turkey, no transportation to schools, no exit from the camps except once daily, dwindling food supplies. Why now?

The reason is simple. Turkey is getting ready for elections. Erdogan, a self-styled nationalistic Islamist ruler very similar to Putin of Russia and Orban of Hungary, wants to be reelected but the far right will only support him if he is showing muscle against Arab speaking immigrants plus Kurds plus critics. The simplest thing was to cut down on food supplies at refugee camps, make bureaucratic rules to make it virtually impossible to anyone there to have a job outside of the camp, and so on.

As a result, tens of thousands started towards Europe - mostly via the sea since Greece already has an Iron Curtain like the one Hungary erected on the Serb border.

The drying up of the Sahel, the terror by violent Islamists in many countries in Africa and the fall of Libya are also contributing factors, but let us not leave out the wild cards Erdogan and Orban and other far-right dictators play to keep their own mafias in power, raking in EU money while catering to neofascist extremists at home.

I recognize the giant difficulties you list and I agree it has been a long-standing problem. It could really lead to the dissolution of the EU.

I think the EU should have united long ago like the United States - where Alabama or Mississippi cannot veto a common federal action against whatever - the Nazis or Daesh or others. It is ridiculous that recognized mafiosi like Berlusconi and Nazi-style dictators like Orban of Hungary can be allowed to operate freely and meddle with foreign policy.

Western Europe only wants to do business. I think after the fall of the Soviet tyranny, a Marshall Plan should have been raised for the countries they wished to include and tighter controls and tariffs erected on the borders of Europe. No real union here. Plus newly entered states like Hungary and Romania had to wait for years even to be able to perform work in the Union. This was used cleverly by local mafioso politicians - the result is rampant corruption.

This attitude - exclude the poorer East and South and keep the rich former colonist states separate - has already led to two world wars in Europe. The third one is starting already in Syria - wait for the Russians to intervene (they would do anything for a warm sea harbor).

originally posted by: Kokatsi

Western Europe only wants to do business.

Business is all I want the UK to do with the EU, you can keep your political union and free borders.
We shall see in the next year or so when UK voters make the choice. I look forward to a confident 'out' vote.
"Freedom!!!" Lol, as some Scottish members here like to whine.

a reply to: Kokatsi

Many thanks for your response. I haven't as yet looked any deeper into Turkey or into Greece really just highlighted the main points of interest in countries brought up in previous discussions

I will reiterate what I have said on another thread regarding Russia & Syria which it should be noted are allies

If this below statement is correct and I've no reason to believe otherwise as yet, then it is clear that yes this has been planned for years and clearly Russia wants in with regards to the gas & oil. Assad refused to sign the pipeline deal from Qatar to Europe which bypassed Russia who was Europes' then main supplier of gas & oil. Assad said it was to protect Russian interests in Europe for the supply of natural gas. It seems to me that this was the main kick off point for getting rid of Assad.

Also I think this little titbit from Nato Secretary General Wesley Clarke is interesting to say the least giving credence to the contention that this was a long planned affaird

According to retired NATO Secretary General Wesley Clark, a memo from the Office of the US Secretary of Defense just a few weeks after 9/11 revealed plans to "attack and destroy the governments in 7 countries in five years", starting with Iraq and moving on to "Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran." In a subsequent interview, Clark argues that this strategy is fundamentally about control of the region's vast oil and gas resources.

Assad then brokered a deal between himself & Iran Iraq for a pipeline which was a slap in the face for Qatar which resulted in Saudi bribes to Russia in an attempt to get Putin to change sides. Saudi warned Putin that

whatever regime comes after" Assad, it will be "completely" in Saudi Arabia's hands and will "not sign any agreement allowing any Gulf country to transport its gas across Syria to Europe and compete with Russian gas export

So apart from the myth of a warm water port, it seems the main and probably only reason Russia is going in to help Syria is to secure their economy with the sale of gas to Europe

a reply to: eletheia

Your politicians like all 'power hungry' politicians were caught in the

glare of *power* like all politicians thinking they would swim in the

same pool as the 'big fishes' only to find they end up as insignificant

little tiddlers with no teeth in a pool of 'sharks' .... BIG MISTAKE!!!

Yeah I know...the trap was rather obvious. But in the end...those at the top of the pyramid care not what will happen at the bottom. Their future is never in doubt. ALl in the name of "progress".

The cracks are beginning to show ... a split is inevitable the only thing

in doubt is how long will it take.

I was cheering for the Greece to exit...but they were scared into submission...but for how long I wonder...

This pyramid scheme must break at one point...as they all do.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

My daughter lives in greece and is about to get married over there. Almost everyone she knew was begging to exit they hate the euro, it has destroyed businesses

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

My daughter lives in greece and is about to get married over there. Almost everyone she knew was begging to exit they hate the euro, it has destroyed businesses

the prices went to Euro...worker's pay stayed the same. It happened here also. Everybody is in debt...myself included. In order to live by Euro standards...which they enforce now by law...you have to spend money to keep up...money most of us don't have. You are then forced to take out a loan to keep up...and you know from who ? from foreign owned banks.

A beautiful circle....

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Yup when the main area of business in many areas of greece is tourism, the second the euro came in, prices relatively speaking shot up. Gone were the cheap holidays with cheap meals and the like, so people slowly stopped going and went to Turkey instead. Each year where my daughter and her husband to be live, the season is getting shorter and shorter. It used to be before the euro that Stefan (the greek guy) could live off his tips throughout the season then collect his wages at the end of the season as is common in Greece tourist resorts. The season ran from April to October, now the season has reduced to June to September usually around the beginning of Sept too. This means less tips smaller end of season wage and a lower standard of living for many with the self employed being hit the hardest

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

Thank you for a detailed and thoughtful reply.
The gas pipeline is a subject I should study more. What you wrote has some new elements.
It was a subject of controversy in Hungary (widely looked on as a small country that actually could lead to the Union breaking up). Russia wanted a non-Ukrainian gas pipeline first through Hungary then they changed their minds and rescinded the whole affair - I don't know honestly how they are with Turkey. Obviously they wold not want a pipeline through a war zone... but maybe you know much more about these details than I do.

I have been reading Wesley Clark for years though and I take his information with a grain of salt. Frequently there is something in it, but sometimes it's a bit too CT for me and quite obviously, he has a certain naivete towards the present government of Russia, as have many critics of the establishment in the West.

Another point that is partly relevant: although I celebrate tolerance and putting up with many points of view and cultures and customs, I have myself been a political refugee in the US from a then Soviet state. And it was totally natural for me and my wife that I should adopt the local customs and the language of the country where I was headed - and I would expect the same flexibility from anyone who claims to be a real refugee. I tried England and Germany first - I have German ancestors. If I had settled in the UK, I would speak with a UK accent. As things are, I settled in the South of the US with frequent visits to New York, SF and other major metropolitan areas.

If Muslims want to pray on their rugs or avoid pork, or wear their headgears, let them do it as long as they keep their religion private and try to adapt in all other ways. Jewish people could adapt also with many taboos such as eating pork or doing work on Saturday. Many people managed to do that with a Muslim or Hindu background - there are scientists, doctors, software engineers and others. There is no question about it. If I emigrated to Norway, I would learn bokmal and all the stuff. Why else change countries?