It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Can a sea captain legally refuse to marry gay couples?

page: 2
3
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 12:54 PM
link   

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: sycomix

Well I used to have boats/ships that would cross international water lines, Once in open waters I was basically sovereign eg. my boat my law.


You can think you were sovereign of your own boat but you are still under the jurisdiction of United States maritime law:


(1)The high seas, any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State, and any vessel belonging in whole or in part to the United States or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States or of any State, Territory, District, or possession thereof, when such vessel is within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State.


While that part being true I grant you, I don't think the laws for mariners have been amended to accommodate same sex weddings, also the boat/ship being private property has a ton to do with it.

EDIT: Churches are not private property last I checked, nor the county clerks office or court room the JP works out of, so stands to reason the rules would vary a bit.
edit on 29-9-2015 by sycomix because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 12:55 PM
link   

originally posted by: sycomix

While that part being true I grant you, I don't think the laws for mariners have been amended to accommodate same sex weddings, also the boat/ship being private property has a ton to do with it.


This was already covered in the thread. My point is that each vessel is still subject to the laws of where it is flagged.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 12:58 PM
link   
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Also note I said BASICALLY sovereign. To further that, my boats sailed out of Texas in the USA where private property is pretty much your to do with as you please, including denial of services or accommodations in any sense of the word. There by no if the ship is a private vessel it would be safe to assume you are NOT required to do anything thing you don't bloody well want to. Including same sex weddings.


EDIT: Also note, the Captain has the right to refuse any passage upon said vessel.
edit on 29-9-2015 by sycomix because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:00 PM
link   

originally posted by: Aleister
I dunno. Can a ship's captain legally refuse to marry same-sex couples? Would it relate to the country of origin of the ship, the ship's present location, or just the standard law of the sea, vis-à-vis the Pirates of the Caribbean? More of a question than a post of added information, which should come from people more legally knowledgeable than myself.


Ship captains are not allowed to marry people.

Except for show/ceremonial.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:01 PM
link   

originally posted by: sycomix
Also note I said BASICALLY sovereign. To further that, my boats sailed out of Texas in the USA where private property is pretty much your to do with as you please, including denial of services or accommodations in any sense of the word. There by no if the ship is a private vessel it would be safe to assume you are NOT required to do anything thing you don't bloody well want to. Including same sex weddings.


I am not addressing whether or not you would be compelled to perform marriages or not, this was already addressed. I cited maritime law to show that it supersedes state law and that the captain is still subject to the laws of the United States, he is not some sort of de facto sovereign when at sea.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:05 PM
link   
I think he could join together a couple of seamen but I don't know if it wood stick.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:06 PM
link   

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: sycomix
Also note I said BASICALLY sovereign. To further that, my boats sailed out of Texas in the USA where private property is pretty much your to do with as you please, including denial of services or accommodations in any sense of the word. There by no if the ship is a private vessel it would be safe to assume you are NOT required to do anything thing you don't bloody well want to. Including same sex weddings.


I am not addressing whether or not you would be compelled to perform marriages or not, this was already addressed. I cited maritime law to show that it supersedes state law and that the captain is still subject to the laws of the United States, he is not some sort of de facto sovereign when at sea.


Nor did I suggest they are again this word BASICALLY being used here indicates MOST situations are at the officers discretion, that being said the Captain of said vessel could in fact refuse to allow a wedding of any kind upon said vessel, same sex or otherwise. Same as they could prohibit fishing or drinking. Most definitely if it is a private vessel.

PS: Not sure what the rules are for corporate or military vessels... but imaging there is still a large amount of discretion given to the responsible officer.
edit on 29-9-2015 by sycomix because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:07 PM
link   
Just about all the people I know that got married by a captain. Knew the captain and the captain did it more out of favor to the couple.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:07 PM
link   

originally posted by: NowWhat
I think he could join together a couple of seamen but I don't know if it wood stick.


Ouch... star for the bad pun... but ouch!



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:09 PM
link   

originally posted by: ObjectZero
Just about all the people I know that got married by a captain. Knew the captain and the captain did it more out of favor to the couple.


I have married couples more than a few times. One said couple was in international waters on purpose because they were same sex. (knowing full well it would not be recognized at home mind you) I never had a problem with it, hey their money is as good as the next guys, right???



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:12 PM
link   

originally posted by: sycomix
Nor did I suggest they are again this word BASICALLY being used here indicates MOST situations are at the officers discretion...


The only things at their discretion are those not already covered under maritime law.


...that being said the Captain of said vessel could in fact refuse to allow a wedding of any kind upon said vessel, same sex or otherwise.


The captain cannot marry anyone unless they are ordained to do so.


Same as they could prohibit fishing or drinking. Most definitely if it is a private vessel.


Irrelevant. Prohibiting passengers from fishing or drinking is not something covered under maritime law.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:40 PM
link   
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

True they have to be in some official capacity allowed to do the wedding in the first place (but I am an ordained reverend, and not the cheesy online thing either... Seminary is BORING!!!)



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:44 PM
link   

originally posted by: sycomix
True they have to be in some official capacity allowed to do the wedding in the first place...


Agreed, which we discussed earlier.


(but I am an ordained reverend, and not the cheesy online thing either... Seminary is BORING!!!)


My friend who married my wife and I got ordained the week before in the back of Rolling Stone.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:53 PM
link   
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

The rolling stone thing would have been nice to know 18 years ago LOL, and to think I did this the hard way... ohh well live and learn. LOL



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 01:53 PM
link   
Well reading all the laws which say a caption cant marry anyone i do know for a fact there is one way a captain can marry anyone ONE LAND OR SEA be a certified priest as well.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 02:57 PM
link   
I was married by a ships Captain. He was a Navy Commander. He was assigned to the Chaplin Corp. To be eligible for a ships Captain the couple has to go through counseling. But ultimately it is the choice of the Captain if he wants to make his ship available for the ceremony.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 05:25 PM
link   

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Also note I said BASICALLY sovereign. To further that, my boats sailed out of Texas in the USA where private property is pretty much your to do with as you please, including denial of services or accommodations in any sense of the word. There by no if the ship is a private vessel it would be safe to assume you are NOT required to do anything thing you don't bloody well want to. Including same sex weddings.


EDIT: Also note, the Captain has the right to refuse any passage upon said vessel.[/


I agree, I have held a a position as Captain, 100 ton, near coastal, up to 200 miles off shore. The Captain is responsible for everything that happens on board, but not required to do anything against his will.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 06:40 PM
link   

originally posted by: buster2010
If the ship is outside American territorial waters then they should be able to refuse. If they are in our waters then they should have to follow our laws. So is Kim Davis planning on becoming a ship captain now?


Actually, it probably has more to do with where the ship is registered as opposed to it's physical location at any given time.

I've worked loading and/or unloading literally thousands of foreign flagged vessels during my career and on a few occasions, I watched as arrest warrants were served on American workers.

No one other than a U.S. marshal has the authority to go onboard a foreign flagged vessel and make the arrest because the ship was considered to be under the jurisdiction of the country of registry, even when it's tied up at the dock.

The only thing any other law enforcement official could do was to either talk the wanted individual into disembarking the ship and surrendering, or persuade the ship's captain to order him off the vessel.

Just saying, when it comes to foreign flagged vessels and the vast majority of sea going vessels are indeed of foreign registry, location means very little, legally.


edit on 29-9-2015 by Flatfish because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 06:50 PM
link   
Thanks everyone. I've learned much and forgot little. Although I should have known and said in my OP that of course a captain isn't required to marry anyone. I have learned in your answers that they even aren't legally entitled to marry anyone, no doubt an old wives-Berenstein Bears/Mirror mirror on the wall tale. Ship ahoy.



posted on Sep, 29 2015 @ 07:07 PM
link   
Other than a cruise-liner, which has licensed individuals for such events, this simply does not take place in the commercial or military maritime industries. Private vessels may be different.

Usually Captains have a "justice of the peace" certification bestowed upon them so that they are recognized as someone of public authority.

Augustus is also correct - the flag state of the vessel (country of Registration) is the determining factor for Captains authority. The US coast and the Jones Act has the power to circumvent flag-state regulations - when transiting within the American Exclusive Economic Zone (200nm from the US coast).

The reality is that a marriage ceremony at sea is only to King Neptune when you cross the line.




top topics



 
3
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join