Religious Liberty?

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: AMPTAH

But "Marriage" is not religious, you can have a Religious Ceremony, but that is not "Marriage"

This is what so many don't understand. The legal marriage is the contract with the state. What happens in a church is the ceremony, holy matrimony, sacred bond, stuff like that.

What does the minister usually say? "Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to join this man and this woman in holy matrimony."

There's a lot I don't know about gay marriage. For example, are gays and lesbians required to "consummate" the marriage with sex.

In a heterosexual marriage, the marriage isn't valid until the man and woman actually have sex. If they go through all the ceremonies, and on the wedding night the woman decides she doesn't want to do it, the marriage is annulled. So, the marriage is not actually all the signing of documents and the blessing of the priest etc..it is simply the first sex act between the man and the woman.

In fact, the holy marriage according to God, is the sex act itself, and all the other ceremonies performed are just rituals celebrating that. As far as God is concerned, any man who lays with a virgin, has taken her to wife!

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. KJV, Deuteronomy 22:28-29

There is a spiritual bond formed between a man and a woman who lay together. And that bond is the marriage. A woman who sleeps around with many men, acquires many husbands. Likewise the man acquires many wives. It is not usually considered a problem, from a biblical point of view, for a man to have many wives. But, traditionally, the woman gets a different description,

For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. KJV, Proverbs 23:27

The "deep ditch" because of the many spiritual bonds that she has formed over time, presenting a dilemma, when a child is born. That child has many fathers, although only the last one provided the physical seed. There are many spiritual bonds to the child.

originally posted by: AMPTAH
There's a lot I don't know about gay marriage. For example, are gays and lesbians required to "consummate" the marriage with sex.

Marriage is marriage. There's really no need to separate out "gay marriage". States have their own laws about consummation.

In a heterosexual marriage, the marriage isn't valid until the man and woman actually have sex.

Valid, according to whom? In most states, legal consummation isn't necessary. Source

All the religious stuff is irrelevant to me.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: AMPTAH
There's a lot I don't know about gay marriage. For example, are gays and lesbians required to "consummate" the marriage with sex.

Marriage is marriage. There's really no need to separate out "gay marriage". States have their own laws about consummation.

Well, it is important. Because sex in straight couple relationships has a definite and specific polarity. So, consummation means the man providing seed to the woman.

But, if two men marry each other, then the question arises, is consummation one man providing seed to the other, or must they take turns, so that consummation is confirmed by both directions being satisfied?

See? It's a complex issue. More important because this is new territory.

Similarly, if two women marry each other, where does the seed come from to consummate the marriage?

If consummation cannot be determined, then the gay and lesbian marriage would not be valid in any state requiring consummation to validate the union, regardless of any federal law to the contrary.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: AMPTAH
There's a lot I don't know about gay marriage. For example, are gays and lesbians required to "consummate" the marriage with sex.

Marriage is marriage. There's really no need to separate out "gay marriage". States have their own laws about consummation.

Well, it is important. Because sex in straight couple relationships has a definite and specific polarity. So, consummation means the man providing seed to the woman.

But, if two men marry each other, then the question arises, is consummation one man providing seed to the other, or must they take turns, so that consummation is confirmed by both directions being satisfied?

See? It's a complex issue. More important because this is new territory.

Similarly, if two women marry each other, where does the seed come from to consummate the marriage?

or...religious people can treat the marriage as being the same as a 75 year old man marrying a 75 year old women...no conception involved. so...."seed" does not count in that, but it would still be recognized as a legitimate marriage

originally posted by: jimmyx

or...religious people can treat the marriage as being the same as a 75 year old man marrying a 75 year old women...no conception involved. so...."seed" does not count in that, but it would still be recognized as a legitimate marriage

What on earth are you talking about? Who put the limits on conception?

Famous men fathering children in their golden years:
Tony Randall, 78
Anthony Quinn, 81:
Saul Bellow, 84
Old men who fathered children.

Old women giving birth too:
Oldest mother at 74

Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? KJV, Genesis 17:17

Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. KJV, Genesis 18:11

Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. KJV, Genesis 18:14

For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. KJV, Genesis 21:2

See? Now, that's the thing about a holy marriage. You can't predict what will happen when. Since, it's the Lords union, He can at any time bring forth a child from the union of man and woman. There's no age limit.

originally posted by: AMPTAH
Well, it is important. Because sex in straight couple relationships has a definite and specific polarity. So, consummation means the man providing seed to the woman.

I understand your religious beliefs, I just don't share them. I was raised in a very religious family, and for 30 years, I was pretty much immersed in it. So, I get your beliefs, but those are YOUR beliefs, not mine.

But, if two men marry each other, then the question arises, is consummation one man providing seed to the other, or must they take turns, so that consummation is confirmed by both directions being satisfied?

The question arose in your mind. The thought has never entered my mind to be the least bit concerned about gay consummation, or ANY other marriage's consummation. Why would I be interested or care? But since you do, perhaps your clergy could help you with the answer.

See? It's a complex issue. More important because this is new territory.

It's not complex to me at all. It's simply none of my business. I'm not concerned. I'm happily married and my marriage was consummated. If I happen to live in a state where it's the law, then I'm good. ANYONE else's marriage is their marriage and they can handle it. You may feel that you're "in new territory" but nothing has changed for me. I'm in the same old territory that I've been for a while.

Were you this curious about other people's consummation before marriage equality?

Similarly, if two women marry each other, where does the seed come from to consummate the marriage?

Gosh, I just don't know. Another question for your clergy.

If consummation cannot be determined, then the gay and lesbian marriage would not be valid in any state requiring consummation to validate the union, regardless of any federal law to the contrary.

I just had to laugh a little bit when I read that.

OK. ... OK. ... No one ever checked on me to determine that my marriage had been consummated. Did the Consummation Patrol visit you? I have NEVER heard of a "check" of any kind. And I just have to ask... What the ...? Why are you even curious about this?

maybe I am wrong, but I do believe that "consummation" was proven by the blood stained sheets the next morning.
um.....I've got a feeling there's alot of marriages out there that would fail the test. If there are any laws still on the books that require consummation for a marriage to be considered legitimate, I would dare say that they would not be considered constitutional. First, demanding proof would be a violation of privacy, and second, I don't believe that a gov't can tell anyone, married or not, that they must have sex. Although it might be customary to produce the bloodstained sheets in the morning in some backwoods rural communities, I don't believe that there are a high number of them.

More than likely, such laws would be used in the event that one of the spouses decides that they don't want to have sex and the other brings the matter to the court. So, well, as long as couple is in agreement about it, there is nothing wrong with delaying the sex act till they are ready to have children.

Most of us are descendants of people who's ancestor had the christian religion practically forced on them by the conquering Roman Empire. They came to a land that had numerous people with numerous religious beliefs and customs themselves. And, well, we often times throughout our history opened the doors, to people of other beliefs, like the african, the chinese when we wanted to use them as cheap labor. So we are now a diverse country, with a various religious beliefs and customs. The idea that any one set of religious beliefs should be used to rule a country as diverse as ours is rather outlandish. Just because your god says something doesn't make it more right than what someone's else's god says. And, the Native Americans were the first to be here and ya know what they say.....
they say that the homosexuals in many ways are better than you and me since they walk as both man and women, carrying the strengths of both.

it's my belief that the christian religion only had one piece of the puzzle, and the pieces were scattered in to the four winds. Each group were taught a way of life different from the others, but together they provided a balance that creation needed. None are absolutely right and none are absolutely wrong. I kind of think that the Christian God should have kept himself in his own region instead of declaring war on the other Gods. His people have lost or maybe destroyed the other pieces of the great puzzle and now we get to pay the price of not being able to put those pieces of the puzzle together and seeing the big picture. That is just my crazy belief, no one else has to believe that way, doesn't matter to me what you believe since I believe that the world needs the diversity for it to be in balance. So, when the homosexuals say that they want to get married, well, I have to say, looking at my belief structure, I can't really say I understand why. But, I have to say I can see no harm in letting they do as they wish. I mean it's not like they are going to overpopulate the world. Heck I believe I read somewhere where the native americans found such couples as great when it came to caring for orphans. And well, they aren't going to cause an underpopulated world, not with an economy where it seems to so many that it's danged near impossible to support a family with kids unless you are a single mom!!!

Once again it turns to Sex, is it really still Legal to "Force" someone to have Sex in order for their Marriage to be valid?

a reply to: Darth_Prime

well, actually, I think that the number one thing you need for a valid marriage is a virgin, so, for some reason, I kind of think american society might have a problem when it comes to religiously valid marriages.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

The question arose in your mind. The thought has never entered my mind to be the least bit concerned about gay consummation, or ANY other marriage's consummation. Why would I be interested or care? But since you do, perhaps your clergy could help you with the answer.

But, how can you have any opinion about gay marriage if you know nothing about it?

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
Once again it turns to Sex, is it really still Legal to "Force" someone to have Sex in order for their Marriage to be valid?

That's an interesting question. I have the same question. Can two male platonic college roommates simply go down to the county clerk's office and get a marriage license that enables them to then get tax breaks? Say they work part time, and want to reduce taxes, that marriage certificate could help with school expenses. When they graduate, they simply divorce, and go their separate ways. No sex, no love, just "benefits". Who is checking? There isn't even consummation requirement.

I can immediately see lots of fraudulent marriages being constructed to game the system.

Bring an immigrant into the US, man marry man, one pays the other a fee, easy US citizenship.

Man about to die, marries other man, takes out life insurance, and survivor gets big winnings, easy money, like taking candy from a baby.

As long as "consummation" is not a requirement, there's lots of potential for using this "anybody marriage" to make all sorts of profits, and schemes.

originally posted by: dawnstar
I kind of think that the Christian God should have kept himself in his own region

You do realize that the Christian Calendar is the way most of the world keeps time today, don't you?

The whole world marks time from the birth of Jesus.

That should be a clue.

a reply to: AMPTAH

But, how can you have any opinion about gay marriage if you know nothing about it?

I've come to understanding that you have this peculiar trait of misreading others' posts. I believe you are not a troll but very sincere. It's just that you have a weird way of viewing the world.

We know all about gay marriage (we can do without the word gay. marriage is marriage).

Don't worry, this is not going to affect you in any way. We are going way ahead. You just need to catch up, or not. We don't care. Like BH said, talk to your clergy.

a reply to: AMPTAH

I can immediately see lots of fraudulent marriages being constructed to game the system.

We already have people doing that. Marrying for green card for example.

Your point?

a reply to: AMPTAH

originally posted by: AMPTAH

Very amusing. "doesn't effect freedom of religion at all"....then...."...God commands it".

Madness and confusion. That's the ultimate effect from perusing the lusts of the flesh.

Just because something effects religion doesn't necessarily mean that it effects freedom of religion.

By the way, it's not my religion, I'm just telling people what the bible said. If you are not a Christian then it doesn't effect you, and if you are a Christian, well, if you want to disobey God then it's your choice.

Amusing indeed.

a reply to: AMPTAH

are two college roommates going to want to go through the hassle of a divorce when at the end of the school year and they are ready to return home??
First two college roommates working part time probably don't have much in income taxes to pay. And you've never heard of the marriage penalty tax?

The marriage penalty in the United States refers to the higher taxes required from some married couples that would not be required by two otherwise identical single people with exactly the same incomes. Multiple factors are involved, but in general, in the current U.S. system, single-income married couples usually benefit from filing as a married couple because of income splitting, while dual-income married couples are often penalized in comparison. The percentage of couples affected has varied over the years, depending on shifts in tax rates.

en.wikipedia.org...

you want to talk about fraud?? Employer hires employee, takes out insurance policy, puts the guy in the most dangerous job there is, man dies in accident, employer walks away with a few extra bucks... or how is this one, you have a life insurance policy, lose your job, the insurance company, instead of just closing the policy up, packages it with a bunch of other insurance policies and puts on sale in the derivative market, someone buys the policy and comes up with the list of names of the people who they need to knock off in order to make a small fortune!!!

www.nytimes.com...

Gay marriage is opening a path to big fraudulent profits?? Really?? you expect use to worry about the possibility of fraud from gay marriage when we are looking at the financial markets, with it's billion dollar bailouts, it's future bail-ins, it's market rigging, and it's revolving door between the gov't and financial institutions where politicians are rewarded with top jobs paying big salaries for turning a blind eye to their criminal activities?

okay, it's late, I'm going to bed...where I can dream of a world where there's some sanity left.

But, how can you have any opinion about gay marriage if you know nothing about it?

are you willing to be part of the consummation patrol and go door to door, peaking into windows, maybe putting cameras into the bedrooms to make sure every new marriage is consummated? I"m sorry but for most of us, as long as they aren't beating the crap out of each other, we don't care what couples do in their bedrooms! There is infringement of personal privacy, and there is just plain perversion.

The judeo-christian religions stem from a culture that started out as one man, one women, who were promised by god to be the parents of many great nations....many... so well with a belief like that one, ya, they put alot of emphasis on procreation, since the more kids you had, the faster they could make their one great nation, then two and eventually take the whole world!!! so well, it was the duty of every man to marry, weather he wanted to or not, and if truth be told, Jesus couldn't have been a Rabbi, unless he was married because single men weren't allowed to be rabbis. and well, women were expect to have kids! they wanted a growing population, so it was important to them...
I'm sorry, but we have the many, many nations, with some of them having people packed in together like sardines! We don't have a need for that growing population any more, we just need to learn to live and let live and try to stay out of each other's business since we often times can know just how often our neighbors enjoy their sexual pleasure, how often they argue, what naughty things their kids did any given day, because the walls that separate us are paper thin!

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: AMPTAH

I can immediately see lots of fraudulent marriages being constructed to game the system.

We already have people doing that. Marrying for green card for example.

Your point?

My point is that I know personally people who have gone through the Green Card by Marriage Process, and I can tell you that they do ask questions about the bedroom. In fact, they take each person aside, and questions each separately, then compare notes. However, if consummation is not a requirement, then that defeats the whole question and answer session of the immigration agents. The married couple can simply say, we don't have sex, it's against our religion, we are "monks", and they still retain their full rights to all citizenship benefits.

a reply to: AMPTAH
a clue to what?? that what I said was true? That the God of the judeo-christian religions let his followers run wild and wipe just about wipe out every trace of the other religions that existed at one time?
heck as far as calendars, the mayan calendar is far more accurate, although not as well understood by most!
if anything, it just goes to show that it's a religion based on war and expansionism.

a reply to: AMPTAH

In fact, they take each person aside, and questions each separately, then compare notes.

Yes to see if their stories match.

It's the same with homicide detectives - sometimes they separate people and question them separately to see if their stories match or not.

originally posted by: dawnstar

Gay marriage is opening a path to big fraudulent profits?? Really??

Yes. Certainly. The thing about man + woman marriage is that there's this thing called "pregnancy".

As a result of this, it is not that easy to find men and women willing to take the risk, if they are not serious about each other.

Having a child is a long term commitment. And if a couple has a kid together, that is a strong signal that the marriage is genuine, and not a sham.

There is no way to use this test in a gay or lesbian marriage. The marriage becomes entirely "word of mouth".

Moverover, if consummation isn't even required, then all doors are open to any type of arrangement you can imagine.

What then is marriage?

Anything we wish it to be.

At that point, no one can be legally denied entry to the US to obtain that Green Card if they have a simple piece of paper saying "we're married". There is no test to verify a genuine marriage, because anything goes.