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Religious Liberty?

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posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 07:28 PM
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originally posted by: Annee


I thought it was when our forefathers wisely understood the need for Separation of Church and State.


Yes, but you misunderstand. The separation of Church and state, was so that no particular Christian denomination could dominate any other. So, the Catholics couldn't deny the Protestants their rights to practice their own view of the doctrines. But, at the core, these were all christian men, writing down the constitution with the view of the "core christian principles" in mind, and attempting to avoid the dominance of any particular sect.
edit on 6-10-2015 by AMPTAH because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 07:35 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH



Yes, but you misunderstand. The separation of Church and state, was so that no particular Christian denomination could dominate any other. So, the Catholics couldn't deny the Protestants their rights to practice their own view of the doctrines. But, at the core, these were all christian men, writing down the constitution with the view of the "core christian principles" in mind, and attempting to avoid the dominance of any particular sect.


That's correct. Kim works for the state. She's a government official. She used the State to deny the gay couples the marriage licenses because of religion. Now where's the separation of Church and state? She abused her office. End of story.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 07:36 PM
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originally posted by: Deaf Alien

So she has no problem refusing to issue marriage licenses to others that are also against the Bible? I don't see her doing that, only the gay people. If she was so worried about going to hell she wouldn't issue the licenses to anyone ever.


Her religion does not tell her, that non-Christians cannot marry. It only refers to man with man, and woman with woman, regardless of their belief system, as being forbidden.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 07:39 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH



Her religion does not tell her, that non-Christians cannot marry.

Thank you for proving my point. I know you don't realize it. People like her pick and choose whatever they want to believe from the bible.

Thanks again for proving our point.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 07:45 PM
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originally posted by: Deaf Alien
That's correct. Kim works for the state. She's a government official. She used the State to deny the gay couples the marriage licenses because of religion. Now where's the separation of Church and state? She abused her office. End of story.


The separation of church and state is encoded in the fact that neither the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church, or any other denominational Church has commanded Kim Davis to act this way. She, as an individual, upholding her personal religious beliefs, is exercising her right to her religious freedom. This is not by command of the Church. This is by command of God, who granted her the understanding of the verses in her holy book, so that she may interpret them correctly, according to her faith. The Church has nothing to do with this. This is an individual exercising her right to religious freedom.

The Church will not punish her for signing the marriage license, or not signing the marriage license. It will not excommunicate her for acting either way.

The Church is not involved in this decision.

That's why Pope Francis only told her to "stay strong".

Pope Francis did not tell her to violate the human laws.

The Pope is not involving the Church in the civil debate. He is only supporting the right of the faithful to act according to their own conscience.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 07:52 PM
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originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: AMPTAH

Her religion does not tell her, that non-Christians cannot marry.


Thank you for proving my point. I know you don't realize it. People like her pick and choose whatever they want to believe from the bible.

Thanks again for proving our point.


If it isn't in the Bible, there's nothing to pick and choose.


edit on 6-10-2015 by AMPTAH because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 07:54 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH



She, as an individual, upholding her personal religious beliefs, is exercising her right to her religious freedom.

Yes. Nobody is denying her that right.

The rest of your post? Sorry I had to ask you. Have you been on drugs? I apologize.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH



If it isn't in the Bible, there's nothing to pick and choose.


you sure?



Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you

2 Corinthians 6:14-17

I am going to bed soon I'll probably discuss this further with you later.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 08:02 PM
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Didn't her Religion tell her not to Divorce? or Commit Adultery? she did that, and repented right? got saved and all that...

the point is, at no point did her Religious Freedom get taken, she had and has the right to believe whatever she wants and how she wants, what she can't do is use that religion as a "Tool" to discriminate against people or to 'Control" other peoples life.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 08:16 PM
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originally posted by: Deaf Alien

The rest of your post? Sorry I had to ask you. Have you been on drugs? I apologize.


You can ask me anything. No, I don't do drugs. If you would point out any of the statements I wrote that made you think that, I'd be happy to elaborate on it.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 08:19 PM
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originally posted by: Darth_Prime
as a "Tool" to discriminate against people or to 'Control" other peoples life.


AND VISA VERSA.

Yes, Christians do sin, repent, get forgiven, and move on. It's the Christian way.

Even gays and lesbians can repent, get forgiven, and move on.

God decides this.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 08:30 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH



No, I don't do drugs. If you would point out any of the statements I wrote that made you think that, I'd be happy to elaborate on it.

Your posts make it seem like you are way out there.

Peace.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 08:33 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

I noticed that you didn't answer about that verse. She did pick and choose.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 08:35 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH




The big movement against religious liberty really began with the gay movement. Since gays practice a form of sexuality that is contrary to the doctrines of the Christian faith, and there are many gays in positions with a "voice", politicians, reporters, etc..the attack on the Christian faith began.


not true, it began when the gov't stepped in and removed the tax exempt status from religious schools because they wanted to discriminate based on race.





In 1901, Georgia Gov. Allen Candler defended unequal public schooling for African Americans on the grounds that “God made them negroes and we cannot by education make them white folks.” After the Supreme Court ordered public schools integrated in Brown v. Board of Education, many segregationists cited their own faith as justification for official racism. Ross Barnett won Mississippi’s governorship in a landslide in 1960 after claiming that “the good Lord was the original segregationist.” Senator Harry Byrd of Virginia relied on passages from Genesis, Leviticus and Matthew when he spoke out against the civil rights law banning employment discrimination and whites-only lunch counters on the Senate floor.

Although the Supreme Court never considered whether Bilbo, Candler, Barnett or Byrd’s religious beliefs gave them a license to engage in race discrimination, a very similar case did reach the justices in 1983.

Bob Jones University excluded African Americans completely until the early 1970s, when it began permitting black students to attend so long as they were married. In 1975, it amended this policy to permit unmarried African American students, but it continued to prohibit interracial dating, interracial marriage, or even being “affiliated with any group or organization which holds as one of its goals or advocates interracial marriage.” As a result, the Internal Revenue Service revoked Bob Jones’ tax-exempt status.

This decision, that the IRS would no longer give tax subsidies to racist schools even if they claimed that their racism was rooted in religious beliefs, quickly became a rallying point for the Christian Right. Indeed, according to Paul Weyrich, the seminal conservative activist who coined the term “moral majority,” the IRS’ move against schools like Bob Jones was the single most important issue driving the birth of modern day religious conservatism. According to Weyrich, “t was not the school-prayer issue, and it was not the abortion issue,” that caused this “movement to surface.” Rather it was what Weyrich labeled the “federal government’s move against the Christian schools.”

thinkprogress.org...


it really is amazing just how much revolves around money....

are you sure that there aren't any jewish gay rabbis or buddhists??
I can see when a gay rabbi might run into a few problems, especially since I believe they still have to be married to be considered a rabbi, but buddhists?

To be honest, I see the constitution as going in the direct opposite direction as the religion in many ways. The bible kind of dictates a form of rule that I consider to be a hierarchy. ya know, high priests and kings given all encompassing power over the people by god, masters over servants, husbands over wives. we have no kinds, no high priests, it's supposed to be we the people who rule...with everyone having certain rights given to them.
that is a far cry from god's hierarchy, where the king gets to transform his kingdom according to his pleasure with no one but god to answer to. our nation is not meant to be a reflection of god, or his appointed king but rather a reflection of the people, if we were all devout christians living according to those christian values you feel should be enforced on everyone, well, there would be no need for them to be enforced because our nation would be reflecting those values.
It isn't mainly because there isn't enough christians living by those values. And part of the reason this is so is that some have turned their sight from christ and focused instead on trying to find a way to force their neighbors to live by those values and by doing so, they lost sight of what is important and what isn't!



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 08:38 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

Ok, but what does that have to do with the Couple getting denied? do you believe that we can Repent our GLBTQ+?



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 09:09 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

ya know, the bible, or any religious text can be interpreted to command alot of various things.
child abuse, spouse abuse, stoning the disobedient kids, not allowing women to work, refusing to deal with women because they are unclean, having a hundred wives, and the list could go on and on.
add to that that well, each person in this country is free to believe however they wish, well, gee, let's add..
mowing our lawns, confining our animals, going into quiet mode at a decent hour at night, killing the cockroaches that are infesting our apartments, running around naked, praying at set times every day, not driving cars, not using modern day technologies, not getting vaccines, and on and on..... but the big one is....
not paying our taxes!!! I mean, come on, every one of us can come up with a morality issue when it comes to paying taxes to a gov't that is using our money to do things we don't agree with...

gee, would you be so understanding if you were living in the apartment that's was being managed by someone who was refusing to exterminate the roaches that were infesting the place because well, all life is sacred and to force him to do so would be a violation of his beliefs? How about the neighbor who is bringing down the value of you $500,000 home by refusing to mow his lawn?
if you protect a person's religious right to refuse to issue a marriage license because it's a gay couple wanting to get married, or the religious right of a large chain of hospitals and clinics to deny some medical care to women even when doing so endangers the women's health, then you have to extend it outward to other beliefs, or you ARE violating that separation of church and state! so well, fine, the little court clerk doesn't have to go against her beliefs and issue the license, good... I don't have to mow my lawn or keep my animals chained and penned up. and this other guy doesn't have to issue your daughter that driver's permit, and well, we all don't have to pay taxes anymore since well, what the gov't does with the money is for the most part immoral as all heck!!!



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 09:33 PM
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originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: AMPTAH

Ok, but what does that have to do with the Couple getting denied? do you believe that we can Repent our GLBTQ+?




For any action, that is a sin, you can repent. But, before you can repent, you have to be conscious that the action is a sin. If you think it is a good thing, then how can you repent? We only repent, when we know something we did is wrong. How are we to know this? No man can tell it to us. God must reveal it himself. God has to grant you the wisdom to see the truth for yourself. Because, repent has to come from the heart. So, what basically happens, is people tell us lots of things. Some say "X" is bad, others say "X" is good. We get to hear the arguments put forth by both sides. Then, we earnestly seek out guidance to know which side is right, and it is revealed to us by the invisible spirit, in such a way that we understand which side is the truth. How exactly it is revealed, is dependent on the individual person. You'll just suddenly understand the whole thing, the mystery will fade away, and you'll know.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 09:45 PM
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originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: AMPTAH

I noticed that you didn't answer about that verse. She did pick and choose.


No, she didn't pick and choose



Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? KJV, 2 Corinthians 6:14


This verse would be a command to Kim Davis to "yoke" herself to a believer, and not to an unbeliever. But, it doesn't say anything about whether unbelievers can be yoked together among themselves, so she can sign the marriage license for a Muslim and a Buddhist just fine.



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 10:20 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

So we agree you can't Cure GLBQT+...

Also you can't assume that everyone follows the same Laws as you, not everyone believes the same, or has the same Religion. so for you to say "Gods Law" can't encompass the entire population, especially those that don't follow the same one as you...

Would you Follow Muhammad's Law? Or Buddha's Law?



posted on Oct, 6 2015 @ 11:17 PM
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originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: AMPTAH

So we agree you can't Cure GLBQT+...



AMPTAH can't cure GLBQT+.

All AMPTAH can do is help to articulate the alternate viewpoint, so that GLBOT+ can hear a different point of view from the one that is constantly prompting them to continue with their current behavior. So, that GLBOT+ can think about what they are doing more objectively. And, maybe, have a chance to get their own revelation and separate themselves from the group think.




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