The identity of Revelation 13's beast

The four beasts of Daniel are kings that rise from the earth, not from the sea. Daniel's beasts have wings and differing body parts. The beast in Revelation is unique and we know it is a man because its number is that of a man. We also know 'he' will lead into captivity and 'if a man has ears' is directed as a warning to the beast. It's not a nation.

The text says that the beast will 'continue' for 42 prophetic months. The pope's career continued for 42 years until he reached a point where he could continue no more.

The second beast is operating at the same time according to Catholic tradition. St Peter's influence is unwavering.

666 might be calculated in isolation, but that is only part of the answer. There are no solutions I am aware of that combine 666 and 616.

The Vatican bank and the church's real estate holdings in places like Manhattan can influence the dollar, not to mention the pope's political machinations in the background.

If you can provide name number mark combinations that work let us hear them. It wasn't that easy.

The harlot is explained in the Mystery passage. She is the mother of whores. Who or what is a mother and a prostitute? Why would they incur the wrath of God? The harlot sits between the beast and God. The harlot isn't the papacy or the church. She represents the breaking of the first commandment. The beast remains the pope, no choice required.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: TheLamb
This is something I thought I should share. I apologise in advance if it upsets any Catholics.

I'm not a Catholic, but I've spent a lot of time grappling with the meaning of Revelation.

Firstly, the beast from the sea is echoing the beasts which rise from the sea in Daniel ch11.
The animal body parts are taken directly from Daniel.
The Daniel beasts represent political states, which implies that the Revelation ch13 beast is a state or series of states.

The beast will have authority for 42 months ... the number of years between the pope's ordination as a priest and his crowning pope.

But that interval is not "having authority for forty-two months". What you're describing is "forty-two [months] and THEN having authority".
If Francis is going to be the beast, he must be Pope for forty-two months, however that is interpreted.

And the second beast in Revelation ch13 is evidently operating at the same time as the first.
I see it as a relationship similar to the relationship between Hitler and the Nazi state; Hitler was the one with a tongue demanding "worship" of the state he had created.

"666" calculations have no value as a pointer, because there are so many thousands of different results that they all cancel one another out.

The Pope has no control over the dollar.
Name-and-number coincidences of the kind you point out can be created easily enough by anyone who is determined to reach that result, which, again, destroys their value as pointers.

Incidentally, all attempts to identify the papacy with the "beast" run into the problem of identifying the harlot of Babylon.
The "Harlot" initially rests on the beast, and is later destroyed by the beast.
It is traditional to identify the Harlot with "Rome" or the papacy, but the papacy CANNOT be both harlot and beast, according to the terms of ch17. Choose one or the other (or neither).

a reply to: TheLamb

FRNc$??! That's a stretch? Go on then. Connect all the dots with David Cameron. Remember, name = mark = number.

David William Cameron.

The letter F is the 6th letter of the alphabet.

Neither his first name, nor his middle name and not even his last name has the letter F.

He is hiding this in plain site!

Therefore, by omission and with stealth, the omission of three Fs is 666.

David Cameron drinks his red wine from a silver and pewter goblet when he is at home with his wife. See he hides this link as well he should.

Damn evil man!

David William Cameron is hiding his true identity!

He is 666, the anti-christ is amongst us!

AND! He was born in 1966. What further proof does the world need. Off with his head! Put a stake through his heart and burn the body.

P

ETA. And God The Almighty loves us, his children. Now get ready for Armageddon. Get ready for Death and Destruction! Because ... He loves us so much!

originally posted by: WeRpeons
Whew, some people have too much time on their hands! How do they come up with this stuff? This is the biggest problem I have with the bible. Everyone interprets it to conform to their own beliefs. You have to ask yourself why wasn't God's word written clearly and concise? Does he like to create puzzles and watch us try to put the pieces together? We wouldn't have all these radical beliefs and numerous religions if the scriptures clearly defined God's exact intentions for mankind.

The bible itself could be a deception to cause division and purposely deceive. If you believe in God as being all knowing, he would have realized before the prophets wrote these verses how his word would be twisted and used radically to cause war and strife in the world.

Make life simple, just follow the "golden rule," One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. Maybe that one line could have united and created peace in this world. Sometimes deception is looking us right in the face.

Yes, God likes a good puzzle. If is solved it demonstrates that His creation is capable of self improvement which reflects on His ability as a Creator. It makes Him very happy. Most tackle them intellectually which is why there are so many interpretations, all wrong. You are supposed to tune into the Holy Spirit to get the answers. You get closer to God that way as well as showing improvement. The wars and strife are a set back from which we are supposed to learn and we are back to a self developing creation.

Treating others as oneself is but a step on the path to God. If you stop there you stagnate.

originally posted by: TheLamb
The four beasts of Daniel are kings that rise from the earth, not from the sea.

"And four great beasts came up out of the sea"- Daniel ch7 v3
(Sorry, I mistakenly said ch11 on the first post)
The first three are easily recognisable as Babylon, the lop-sided empire of the Medes and the Persians, and the soon-divided empire founded by Alexander.
The second beast in Revelation ch13 is the one who comes out of the earth

The beast in Revelation is unique and we know it is a man because its number is that of a man.

There are two beasts in ch13, and the second one ("from the earth") is a man

'if a man has ears' is directed as a warning to the beast.

"If anyone has ears..." It's addressed to people in general. Anyone who will listen.
As a warning against the beast

The text says that the beast will 'continue' for 42 prophetic months. The pope's career continued for 42 years until he reached a point where he could continue no more.

Come on, it's absurd to say that the pope's time of authority came to an end on the day he was elected pope.
That is a desperate way of getting round the fact that these "forty years" came BEFORE his "time of authority". Surely it is glaring obvious that he is in authority NOW.

The harlot isn't the papacy or the church. She represents the breaking of the first commandment

So in what way, at the end of ch17, does the pope and his allies destroy and burn with fire "the breaking of the first commandment"?
I don't think you've really thought this all through.

a reply to: TheLamb

Another Christian saying that the Pope is the Antichrist or Beast of Revelation? Congratulations, you've only joined the ranks of thousands before you, and who have all been wrong.

a reply to: TheLamb

The seven heads are the positions the pope has held during his career: priest, auxiliary bishop, titular bishop, archbishop, cardinal priest, ordinary, pope. The one that is cut represents the resignation of Benedict.

This is not consistent. If the other heads refer to positions the pope has held, the decapitated head is far more likely to denote the career he did not follow: that of chemist, for which he qualified.

It is the Federal Reserve Note with its cents and dollars: FRNc$

Cents aren't issued as notes.

My neigbour's Guard Donkey better resembles the Beast described in Revelation. But to be fair, he is a cranky donkey who has seen some serious business during his days on duty.

a reply to: TheLamb

www.ridingthebeast.com...

"Φρα Νχιϛ" in the Greek Isopsephy system equals 1267 (500+100+1+0+50+600+10+6)

I'd love to hear your views on a couple of my threads dedicated to the number of the beast (click my name to the left to reveal my threads), and how in Hebrew 616 is written ת''ריו TheRIoU which is basically Gr. Θεριου (genitive, of the beast) transliterated into Hebrew written according to the Hebrew numerical system used in the time of Jesus and John as far as I have managed to find out.

Heb. ת''רסו is 666 and reads ת''רסו which is TaRSoU, which is Gr. Ταρσοῦ (genitive, of Tarsos) transliterated into Hebrew and added the two ' signs. St. Paul came from Tarsos. Paul of Tarsos would read Gr. Παῦλος Ταρσοῦ (I think) preached and seems to have introduced the theology of the Son of God Jesus we know today who was sacrificed and nailed to a tree and pierced, supposedly killed according to some unknown human lamb sacrifice ritual to atone for humanity's collective sin AKA Original Sin, and who came up from the bottomless pit three days later— This is the Jesus-variant the world's biggest religion is founded upon. Just like the prophecy says. But the Number and Name of the beast, may simply just be "the Beast's" genitive of Gr. θηρίον written in Hebrew letters תריו.

(Same source as above)

"ת''ריו" in the Hebrew Gematria system equals 616 (400+200+10+6)

(Same source again)

"ת''רסו" in the Hebrew Gematria system equals 666 (400+200+60+6)

And of course: Jesus written in Hebrew transliteration is near identical to the Tetragrammaton only it has Shins instead of Hehs: Heb. ישוש. It adds up to 616.

(Same source)

"ישוש" in the Hebrew Gematria system equals 616 (10+300+6+300)

Looks to me like the Beast is Jesus and the false prophet is St. Paul.

Entertaining OP (opening post). Star / Flag.
Welcome onboard!

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: TheLamb

The seven heads are the positions the pope has held during his career: priest, auxiliary bishop, titular bishop, archbishop, cardinal priest, ordinary, pope. The one that is cut represents the resignation of Benedict.

This is not consistent. If the other heads refer to positions the pope has held, the decapitated head is far more likely to denote the career he did not follow: that of chemist, for which he qualified.

It is the Federal Reserve Note with its cents and dollars: FRNc$

Cents aren't issued as notes.

But if he didn't pursue chemistry how can the head grow back? Rev 17:8 "The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it was, is not, and will come." Benedict was pope, is not now but very unusually (and astonishingly) is still alive and now the beast has come as Francis. A dead predecessor would be "it was, and will come".

100 cents make up the one dollar Federal Reserve Note. Is that better?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I'll take a look at your posts.

Revelation was written in Greek so it makes sense to use Greek numbers of the time rather than Hebrew ones in my view. We don't know if John spoke Hebrew.

a reply to: [post=19862251]

Any approach one takes to the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite ("Book of Revelation") dramatically affects one’s exegetical conclusions, it is necessary that I explain that the book itself demands a 'preterist' approach, meaning that the prophecies have al;ready been fulfilled in the 1st century CE. (from 'praeter' = Latin for 'already done'

Much of the language of the book makes free use of older prophecies of the OT since apparently it was believed that the age of the prophets was over (by 69 CE, the year the book was in circulation) = so the writer(s) midrashed old prophecies and dusted them off to put them to more current use, including the 4 horses of Zechariah and the 10 plagues of Egypt.

The most fundamental problem with the futurist approach is that it requires a very artificial reading of the many texts within the book itself that point to the imminent fulfillment of its prophecies.

The book opens and closes with declarations indicating that the things revealed in the book “must soon take place” (1:1; 22:6). It opens and closes with declarations indicating that “the time is near” (1:3; 22:10).

The book of Revelation does not begin in the way the pseudepigraphal Book of Enoch begins, with a statement to the effect that the content is not for the present generation, but for a remote generation that is still to come. The book of Revelation has direct relevance to the real historical first century churches to whom it was addressed, and the text of the book itself points to the imminent fulfillment of most of its prophecies.

The historicist approach does face difficulties at times (since we often cannot grasp where the author is taking the text) but is but is built on a more solid foundation than the so-called futurist approach which is fundamentally flawed as a method of interpreting the book because it brushes over the specificity found within the text.

Thus it would be a serious mistake to understand the images of Revelation as timeless symbols. Their character conforms to the contextuality of Revelation as a letter to the seven churches of Asia several of which were destroyed by an earthquake prior to 69 CE .

Admittedly the preterist approach robs the book of any contemporary significance which becomes a literary curiosity with little prophetic meaning.

Just my $.02

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: TheLamb
The four beasts of Daniel are kings that rise from the earth, not from the sea.

"And four great beasts came up out of the sea"- Daniel ch7 v3
(Sorry, I mistakenly said ch11 on the first post)
The first three are easily recognisable as Babylon, the lop-sided empire of the Medes and the Persians, and the soon-divided empire founded by Alexander.
The second beast in Revelation ch13 is the one who comes out of the earth

The beast in Revelation is unique and we know it is a man because its number is that of a man.

There are two beasts in ch13, and the second one ("from the earth") is a man

'if a man has ears' is directed as a warning to the beast.

"If anyone has ears..." It's addressed to people in general. Anyone who will listen.
As a warning against the beast

The text says that the beast will 'continue' for 42 prophetic months. The pope's career continued for 42 years until he reached a point where he could continue no more.

Come on, it's absurd to say that the pope's time of authority came to an end on the day he was elected pope.
That is a desperate way of getting round the fact that these "forty years" came BEFORE his "time of authority". Surely it is glaring obvious that he is in authority NOW.

The harlot isn't the papacy or the church. She represents the breaking of the first commandment

So in what way, at the end of ch17, does the pope and his allies destroy and burn with fire "the breaking of the first commandment"?
I don't think you've really thought this all through.

Dan 7:17 KJV "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" So, even though they originally came out of the sea, they actually represent men rising out of the ground. The word 'kingdom' is used in some versions but I'm sticking with 'king'. That means that both the first and second beasts in Rev 13 can be individuals.

Rev 13:5 KJV " And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months" It says 'power to continue', it doesn't necessarily mean that he had power for 42 months, he only had power to continue.

Rev 13: 9-10 "If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." You can interpret "any man" as either of the two beasts. It's definitely a warning to the beasts. They are the ones who will be doing the capturing and killing. Everyone else on the planet will be running around screaming.

I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot. The mother and the prostitute? The answer is "Mary". Mary was the mother of Christ, and Mary was the prostitute Jesus saved. Both have been deified by the Catholic Church which breaks the first commandment, and in the case of the virgin the second as well. She sits between the beast (the vicar of Christ) on Earth (and by extension the Church) and God in heaven blocking the way. This is why she incurs the wrath of God.

thats an interesting view. i did my own but thought it was psychotronics technology that has been abusing the human race for longer ago that the bible.

since i hear the voices in moving air (prince of the air), and water (beast from the sea) and they use magneto frequencies placed on people and objects (beast from the land).

its possible the bible was written to have multiple meanings (full coverage).

thanks.

originally posted by: TheLamb
The word 'kingdom' is used in some versions but I'm sticking with 'king'.

The fact remains that the descriptions of the beasts of Daniel are easily matched against identifiable empires. They are symbols of kingdoms, not of individuals.

It says 'power to continue', it doesn't necessarily mean that he had power for 42 months, he only had power to continue.

The problem here is that you really don't understand the "forty-two months". You are trying to take the phrase in isolation, to suit your own purposes, without any regard for the its implications in the usual interpretation of Revelation and Daniel.
Let me explain that the forty two months are normally equated with the 1260 days (on the convention of 30 day months) and also with the period covered by "a time, two times, and half a time" (understood as three and a half years).
These are all the same time period. It is the period of the tribulation, when he "makes war on the saints". That is what happens when the beast is "ALLOWED TO EXERCISE AUTHORITY" for forty-two months (ch13 v5)
And you are telling us that this whole time of tribulation was happening between Advent 1969 and March 2013? (I've just noticed, by the way, that your maths is wrong. That's forty-three years, not forty two.) You are saying that this was the period when Francis was dominating the world, making war on the church, causing the faithful to be put to death, and that this time of authority came to an end when he was elected pope? Why did nobody else notice that these things were happening?

It's definitely a warning to the beasts. They are the ones who will be doing the capturing and killing

That is exactly why the beast DOES NOT NEED a warning about these events.
The potential victims are the people who need to be warned and prepared, and they are the people who need to keep their ears open.

I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot.

No, you just gave me a completely different answer;

She represents the breaking of the first commandment

The answer is "Mary"... This is why she incurs the wrath of God.

But the harlot is not destoyed and set on fire by the wrath of God. She is destroyed and set on fire by the beast and his allies (ch17 v16). I have pointed this out once already.
So if you are going to identify Francis as the beast and Mary as the harlot, you are claiming that Francis himself is going to destroy Mary and set her on fire. Perhaps you would like to explain how this is going to happen.

Pope Francis is the only hope the Catholic Church has for longevity. He's placating all of the warmongering, hypocrisy, bigotry, and superstition the past administrations have been festering for hundreds of years. Higher education and the gift of the Internet chips away at faith systems for new generations of contemporary rationalism. You can only support a false veneer for so long. This Pope is the closest emulation of your "Christ" figure in history. And the superstitious, fearful, ignorant mouth-breathers have the audacity to villify the one person who stands between your fairy tales and mythology staying relevant, and fading away into the obsolete and obscure. The irony of this Antichrist position is mind boggling. Please keep thinking like a programmed monkey. Nature's checks and balances will inoculate the tribal types from human progression.

a reply to: Astyanax

This is not consistent. If the other heads refer to positions the pope has held, the decapitated head is far more likely to denote the career he did not follow: that of chemist, for which he qualified.

Perhaps the 7 heads are the number of popes since vatican city was founded in February 11, 1929. With the 10 horns being the G-10 industrial nations,

You make some good points. I talked about this allot during my first media appearance on MnRTV last week. We covered my discovery up North the lost one world religion that is making a return.

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: TheLamb
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I'll take a look at your posts.

Revelation was written in Greek so it makes sense to use Greek numbers of the time rather than Hebrew ones in my view. We don't know if John spoke Hebrew.

Well, it was obviously written by a Jew. Greek was common, but there are many things concerning Revelation that indicate it was originally written in Hebrew. 616/666 is one of them as I showed here. Here are a few points:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: TheLamb

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: TheLamb
The four beasts of Daniel are kings that rise from the earth, not from the sea.

"And four great beasts came up out of the sea"- Daniel ch7 v3
(Sorry, I mistakenly said ch11 on the first post)
The first three are easily recognisable as Babylon, the lop-sided empire of the Medes and the Persians, and the soon-divided empire founded by Alexander.
The second beast in Revelation ch13 is the one who comes out of the earth

The beast in Revelation is unique and we know it is a man because its number is that of a man.

There are two beasts in ch13, and the second one ("from the earth") is a man

'if a man has ears' is directed as a warning to the beast.

"If anyone has ears..." It's addressed to people in general. Anyone who will listen.
As a warning against the beast

The text says that the beast will 'continue' for 42 prophetic months. The pope's career continued for 42 years until he reached a point where he could continue no more.

Come on, it's absurd to say that the pope's time of authority came to an end on the day he was elected pope.
That is a desperate way of getting round the fact that these "forty years" came BEFORE his "time of authority". Surely it is glaring obvious that he is in authority NOW.

The harlot isn't the papacy or the church. She represents the breaking of the first commandment

So in what way, at the end of ch17, does the pope and his allies destroy and burn with fire "the breaking of the first commandment"?
I don't think you've really thought this all through.

Dan 7:17 KJV "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" So, even though they originally came out of the sea, they actually represent men rising out of the ground. The word 'kingdom' is used in some versions but I'm sticking with 'king'. That means that both the first and second beasts in Rev 13 can be individuals.

Rev 13:5 KJV " And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months" It says 'power to continue', it doesn't necessarily mean that he had power for 42 months, he only had power to continue.

Rev 13: 9-10 "If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." You can interpret "any man" as either of the two beasts. It's definitely a warning to the beasts. They are the ones who will be doing the capturing and killing. Everyone else on the planet will be running around screaming.

I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot. The mother and the prostitute? The answer is "Mary". Mary was the mother of Christ, and Mary was the prostitute Jesus saved. Both have been deified by the Catholic Church which breaks the first commandment, and in the case of the virgin the second as well. She sits between the beast (the vicar of Christ) on Earth (and by extension the Church) and God in heaven blocking the way. This is why she incurs the wrath of God.

Are you a believer in "KJV Onlyism"? Please be clear in your answer.

a reply to: TheLamb
That is a stretch. Read that again. Keep stretching your BS. No one believes you.