Catholics & Gay Marriage: POPE Francis Optimistic, whereas Vatican Opposes

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: Barcs

There will never be female priests, and The Catholic Church will never condone same sex, so called "marriage".

2 people of the same gender cannot have "sex". They are mutually masterbating, plain and simple.

Period. End of story.

Okay, well if you say it, it must be true. Love is love, but if you honestly believe that nonsense, you haven't been paying attention. The church has been slowly updating itself over the years to stay relevant. Jesus didn't care about same sex couples, there's no reason we should. His teachings directly contradict the way so many people judge them over the way they are. Homosexuals can have sex. Remember oral sex is still a type of sex, so is anal. 2 practices that heterosexual couples engage in as well. Oral sex is not masturbation. If you think it is, then you need to look up the words.

...if the machinery of Vat were to put as much effort, money, PR into the sexual exploits of thier own 'citizenry' around the globe, instead of the cursory glance in its direction, and minimisation of its implications re: 'what would jesus do'...there would be no time, money or PR to hypocritically discuss, examine, disect the trivialities of any of this...from a marketing perspective - that campaign has been thoroughly see-through, and a complete failure that continues to flub along dragging a dead horse behind it...

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Å99

originally posted by: Barcs
Gay marriage will eventually be approved by the church. Jesus never spoke out against it, it doesn't contradict anything aside from some archaic verses in the old testament from 3000+ years ago that are filled with all kinds of unrealistic outdated commandments. There's really no logical reason to keep a viewpoint that is so archaic. It's like arguing for slavery because it used to be part of our culture. Treating other people unfairly is wrong, regardless of individual belief systems.

I won't. I'll point you to the part where the Pharisees asked Jesus about divorce and so He defined what a marriage is for them on the way to making His point. He defined it there as being between man and woman. So He didn't speak out against it specifically? But He did define a marriage for us, and that was God's definition before it was His. He didn't change it. So under what authority are we to do so?

a reply to: ketsuko

Barcs is right. It will eventually be included in the church. That is, in the church of the one world religion.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: ketsuko

Barcs is right. It will eventually be included in the church. That is, in the church of the one world religion.

On that we can agree, but that church will never be my church nor is it the church of God in any way.

a reply to: ketsuko

Nor mine.

a reply to: ketsuko

That only fits in your Belief System though, the Catholic Church,or any Church Or Religion can't hold their Religious Law as "World Law"

a reply to: Darth_Prime

Darth, there IS a "world law" already. You're just not buying into it. This universal (catholic) element that we all possess is conscience. At the very core of Jesus' Church teaching, is that we listen to our conscience.

A conscience can be well-formed, malformed, ill-formed, or uninformed. It's our duty and responsibility as humans to have a well formed conscience. If a worldview is held, that drastically strays from the majority of the community, then one should probably take a long, discerning look at their conscience, and what it is exactly trying to tell them. Maybe it's uninformed, maybe it's malformed, maybe something got in the way of forming a good conscience in our youth. And of course, who knows?...maybe it's we that are right, and everyone else is wrong.....Lord knows.

Speaking for myself, I know for a fact now, that I spent many years of my youth, following a horribly malformed conscience. I was lied to, and I was abused, and I was surrounded by hypocrites. The world lied to me...and I listened. I was dead wrong. They were dead wrong.

Today is different though. That was yesterday. Screw yesterday.

"*I* am The Way....The Truth....The Life". That one line sums it up. Every time I say it, my conscience jumps up and down screaming..."yes! yes! yes!"

So, listen to your conscience, and follow it, but just make sure you educate, grow and nurture that conscience, cuz it could darn well be lying to you too.

a reply to: Ignatian

Pope Francis, in his Oct 9th homily:

"When the devil numbs your conscience...he has won"

I posted my comment above, then clicked over to a news site...this was the headline, I thought, how appropriate. Maybe google that line, and read the article. It's Truth, brother.

a reply to: ketsuko

You wote QUOTE "I'll point you to the part where the Pharisees asked Jesus about divorce and so He defined what a marriage is for them on the way to making his point. He defined it there as being between man and woman. So he didn't speak out against it specifically? But He did define a marriage for us, and that was God's definition before it was his. He didn't change it. So under what authority are we to do so?" UNQUOTE

R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jesus") never touched upon gay relations/marriage in the council approved Gospels, but he did pronounce a dictrum against Divorce, basically his thoughts on the subject was, NO DIVORCE, ever. ('What the Most High has woven together let no son of man unravel...')

Yet what to do with so many divorced 'Christians', especially in the US ?

a reply to: ketsuko

Under what authority are we to believe the bible is fact or use it as an excuse to restrict other people's rights?

Do you have a reference scripture or quote for me?

"Do unto others...." suggests homosexuals should treated like everyone else.

"He who is without sin, throw the first stone" and "Judge not yest ye be judged" and "hate the sin, not the sinner" suggests so called "sinners" should not be judged by anyone but god.

originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: Darth_Prime

Darth, there IS a "world law" already. You're just not buying into it. This universal (catholic) element that we all possess is conscience. At the very core of Jesus' Church teaching, is that we listen to our conscience.

A conscience can be well-formed, malformed, ill-formed, or uninformed. It's our duty and responsibility as humans to have a well formed conscience. If a worldview is held, that drastically strays from the majority of the community, then one should probably take a long, discerning look at their conscience, and what it is exactly trying to tell them. Maybe it's uninformed, maybe it's malformed, maybe something got in the way of forming a good conscience in our youth. And of course, who knows?...maybe it's we that are right, and everyone else is wrong.....Lord knows.

Yes, we have a built in conscience, but it's not a separate thing, it's our ability to understand empathy and the golden rule. I just don't see what this has to do with homosexuals. I see no reason why they should not be allowed to do what anybody else in love can do. Instead of dictating a faith based worldview as "word law", why can't people just let them live their lives and leave it to god to judge? After all, he'll be judging you for breaking the dozens of other Leviticus commandments.

I'm pretty fed up with Christians only being interested in Jews (yay!) and gays (boo!)
It's boring and useless.

a reply to: Ignatian

That has nothing to do with Religion though, nor is it dictated by it... and if it was, who has the "Right" Religion? is it teh Catholics? Christians? or people who believe in Buddha?

a reply to: Darth_Prime

Darth, Catholics ARE Christians :-)

Catholics are the original Christians. The Catholic Church gave the world this bible we all talk about. And As Christians, we believe that the religion, as taught by Jesuis Christ IS the true religion.

We also believe that Jesus personally can speak to you...today...right now. And he does this through that little voice in your heart (not your head)...that is your conscience. That's why it is relevant.

a reply to: Ignatian

Not to me, and not to a lot of people as well.. many have different Beliefs

originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: Darth_Prime

Darth, Catholics ARE Christians :-)

Catholics are the original Christians. The Catholic Church gave the world this bible we all talk about. And As Christians, we believe that the religion, as taught by Jesuis Christ IS the true religion.

We also believe that Jesus personally can speak to you...today...right now. And he does this through that little voice in your heart (not your head)...that is your conscience. That's why it is relevant.

Mormons are Christians too.

But, you'll get an argument from the "true" Christians. Whoever they are.

a reply to: Darth_Prime

This point I've made about everyone having a conscience, is not a matter of belief. I think it's a factual reality upon which we can all find common ground.

This talk of conscience is the "spiritual" aspect of our lives. Spirituality and Religeon...are mutually exclusive. But I do believe you can't have one without the other. One's Religeon can help to bolster, to form well, a conscience.

Many will say they have a spirituality, but don't need Religeon. I find these folks to be transitory. Their worldview changes with the wind. There's no authority. We need authority in our lives. Jesus set it up that way.

originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: Darth_Prime

This point I've made about everyone having a conscience, is not a matter of belief. I think it's a factual reality upon which we can all find common ground.

This talk of conscience is the "spiritual" aspect of our lives. Spirituality and Religeon...are mutually exclusive. But I do believe you can't have one without the other.

I am a Spiritual Atheist.

Religion is not required.

a reply to: Barcs

Good post Barcs, I agree with darn near everything you said. Except Christians are not bound by Levitical restrictions. That's Old Testament, The Old Law. Scripture tells us we can chuck most of those. Orthodox Jews still abide by them though...more power to em.

"Let them live their lives". I like that part, and it's what our pope has been saying. There is a danger in boiling everything in life down to black or white. Life is grey, we all know this. What our pope is saying, is lets meet in the grey area...and dialogue. That's all.

To be perfectly clear, although it will never set the record straight. The Catholic Church does NOT hate, condemn or shun ANYone. The Church knows intimately that we ALL carry crosses in our lives. The doors are open to everyone, along with their baggage. Everyone's got baggage, some heavier than others.

a reply to: Annee

If that's what "gets you through the night" Annee, then I say "right on brother/sister!"

It's your path. And life is funny. Our paths can take us to a wide variety of places. Some beautiful, some not so pretty.

Speaking for myself, I've been down a few different paths. All I can say, is I know a couple paths I would never recommend ANYone go down.