lies about deaths by tsunami

i believe we are being lied to about the amount of confirmed or even unconfirmed deaths. This is because some of the more remote parts that were hit haven't even been reached by aid whether it be global or local. I believe there could be as many as 250,000 confirmed dead, and around another 100,000 to 200,000 that have not yet been accounted for so they won't let out in the media that this is the true figure. your views?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I believe there could be as many as 250,000 confirmed dead, and around another 100,000 to 200,000 that have not yet been accounted for so they won't let out in the media that this is the true figure.

On what do you base these suspicions? Also keep in mind efforts have only been going on for ~a week and a half. There is no reason to fudge these numbers. Give it time and meanwhile, a thought or two for those that survived wouldn't hurt. Peace.

shauny

I don't think anybody is lying. I think they're reporting confirmed numbers and the Indonesian Health Minister has warned people that their country's loss of life could reach 400,000 all by itself. But heads up he also hinted that they were probably about to stop counting and start estimating. I personally believe this is a wise choice because they have got to get these bodies disposed of before the living populace gets ill from disease.

And just because there might be people out in the rural parts doesn't mean they are lying. It means they haven't gotten to those parts and THEY DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE DIED. Like MemoryShock said, it happened a week and a half ago, it is going to take awhile to find everybody, whether they be dead or alive. No conspiracy here.


Whoops, must have posted at the same time as Valhall. same point though! I think.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Kompaktor]

i dont think its a flat out lie, i just dont think they really know yet, thats all..this could reach 1/2 million dead by the time they finish estimating

A "lie" incorporates motivation and intent. As such, being that there will probably be no 'final' accurate accounting, I fail to see how the media or those who directly relay such numbers, being there is a distinct differenece between "confirmed" and "unconfirmed," are withholding such evaluations with the motivation or intent to "lie".

Pretty hefty accusation/assertion to make...especially when it amounts to conjecture and being unfounded, unless someone can provide to the contrary. Till then, the use of "lie" should be used with extreme caution.



seekerof

Omigosh, Seekerof, we finally agree on something

I cant see where there would be any conspiracy here

Are we talking dead just from the tsunami itself?

I'm willing to bet disease is going to claim even more. Sad, sad, sad. I keep thinking how horrible it was...9/11 pales in comparison when you're talking only numbers...the thing is, it's not just numbers, they were human beings too....

Why would anybody lie? Is there a precentage in hiding deaths here? This kind of reminds me like the threads we saw after the Florida hurricanes about 1000's of covered up deaths. No point then, no point now. They are doing thier best under brutal circumstances. We will never have an exact number.

Why would anyone lie? The place is full of reporters. The only reasons they can't confirm the exact number of people who have been killed is because

1. They have as yet been able to reach every place that has been impacted

2. They are still cleaning many areas. This will take days to complete

3. Many people were washed out to sea and they have been lost for ever. It will be months before numbers can confirmed if ever. I doubt if we will ever know exactly how many

The governments of all of the countries impacted have stated time and again the number will be much higher than that currently reported.

There is no conspiracy about the number impacted. If there is a conspiracy it centres around other activity that may have impacted.

shaunybaby, I will agree with all others, that prove your Belief here as incorrect. Your desire to find a reason to deny ignorance will not be seen here. However, if you were to look at how we ignore the fact, We as a Nation allow our own to destroy those that have not been Born... *( I'm not going into that topic here) those are the numbers that matter now, We have some control over this, But the deaths are in the Millions... My count might be off, but not by much.
Some of the reasons of why this happen, and why the world notice, It was not expected, so now we attempt to do what is right to save the living, and grieve with them in their loss.

.
To Valhall,
Im pretty sure there is little risk of disease from dead bodies. They do smell horrible and are depressing and unsightly.

Contaminated water is the biggest risk of disease as well as mosquito born malaria from standing water.

I doubt that most of these governments would lie about the scale of the calamity. There is viturally no political upside to lying about it.
.

A lot died because on an poor infastructure to begin with.

Its crazy how Flordia can get hit back to back by 4 hurricanes and a little over one hundred died. But a 9.0 quake (and some waves) killed a quarter on a million.

I think the main reason for this many dead is the lack of infastructure.

I think the numbers can and will be inflated to get MONEY from a symapathy scam. The higher the death toll the greater the world sympathy. Like "body count" in Vietnam. High numbers have political capital and literally more money in the pockets of governments that traditionally care little for the masses of their people.

Originally posted by Murcielago
A lot died because on an poor infastructure to begin with.

Its crazy how Flordia can get hit back to back by 4 hurricanes and a little over one hundred died. But a 9.0 quake (and some waves) killed a quarter on a million.

I think the main reason for this many dead is the lack of infastructure.

Some waves? Do you understand how big this "wave" was. Have you seen the videos available of this little "wave". I would have to say you don't know what you are talking about. The hurricaines and the storm surges associated with them are nothing compared to a tsunami of this magnitude.

The reason for so many dead is because a giant wave swept them away. Drowning and mangling 100's of thousands of people.

Exactly what infrastructure would have prevented this from happening?



[edit on 2-1-2005 by Skibum]

Horacid
I think you're both right and wrong. There is a sympathy scam going on here, but they don't have to inflate numbers to achieve the desired effect. The numbers are there, and then some. How many foreign contractors for companies like ExxonMobil died down there, with a rifle in their hand, protecting american oil equipment from indigenous rebels? The world may never know.

Aceh was one of the hardest hit provinces I believe, and that was and still is an area closed to reporters and foreigners of any kind. There has been fierce fighting there for many years, guerillas trying to oust foreign (american) oil interests. I wonder also, how many native deaths will go uncounted. The official death toll will represent all those bodies that washed up and were recorded in some person's book, probably alongside all the names of those reported missing by their loved ones and never found who were presumed drowned.

The actual death toll is higher than official numbers in a situation like this, a disaster spread out over a large, remote area (14 nations I think?!), some parts of which were engaged in heavy fighting, resistance versus counter insurgency teams.

It's like trying to get accurate numbers on the holocaust or an obscure african war in the seventeenth century. There's no way to get enough accurate data on those lost and unreported.

- Be wary of who you give your money to -
I wonder how much the Red Cross will take this time? How much did they lose from the 9/11 coffers? Maybe lose is too nice a word..how about stole. Red Cross employees were seen with pockets bursting with cash after 9/11. Whole drawers emptied, no written records of donations in the first days. And yet, I see their logo plastered up everywhere like a shining beacon of charity - It's pretty insulting to those who consider them on even par with government thugs who murder indigenous people for their resources.

On a side note, I wonder how many unreported military affiliates were down there? How many attaches, and advisors, logistics men and engineers. My only hope is that the Red Cross is going to give some of their collected money to the widows and parents of the men who died in service to Exxon, who will probably never be reported. Their wives and children may never even be told how they died. There were a whole lot of mercenaries hanging around the region before the event. How many are there now? I'm not sure, but it would be an intesting bit of data.

[edit on 2-1-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Horacid
I think you're both right and wrong. There is a sympathy scam going on here, but they don't have to inflate numbers to achieve the desired effect. The numbers are there, and then some. How many foreign contractors for companies like ExxonMobil died down there, with a rifle in their hand, protecting american oil equipment from indigenous rebels? The world may never know.

Aceh was one of the hardest hit provinces I believe, and that was and still is an area closed to reporters and foreigners of any kind. There has been fierce fighting there for many years, guerillas trying to oust foreign (american) oil interests. I wonder also, how many native deaths will go uncounted. The official death toll will represent all those bodies that washed up and were recorded in some person's book, probably alongside all the names of those reported missing by their loved ones and never found who were presumed drowned.

The actual death toll is higher than official numbers in a situation like this, a disaster spread out over a large, remote area (14 nations I think?!), some parts of which were engaged in heavy fighting, resistance versus counter insurgency teams.

It's like trying to get accurate numbers on the holocaust or an obscure african war in the seventeenth century. There's no way to get enough accurate data on those lost and unreported.

The remoteness and fighting are only two reasons for a discrepency between official body count and actual number dead. It has been reported that many of these remote areas in India and Indonesia do not have accurate census figures. Many people are not on any sort of government census roll, their villages are not officially sanctioned, and the government didn't know these now missing people even existed.

Is there a discrepency between the official tally and the actual number dead? Quite possibly. Indian media sources, for instance, have reported in some villages that they've buried more dead than the official government count. But this isn't necessarily a function of conspiracy--this is a function of needing to get the dead bodies in the ground as fast as humanly possible and not waiting for some government officials to do a head count in a remote province that they probably can't even reach easily.

And, as has already been mentioned, Indonesia has already come out and said they might have 400,000 dead on their hands. So far as I'm aware they just got helicopters out to the coast today to start surveying damage. That's just to make foray's in and out of these islands to drop supplies. It is difficult to even get crews on the ground to help identify and bury bodies, especially considering that in some parts of the region they have more flooding from rains now (not to mention 5 and 6+ aftershocks more or less continously).

And this ignores all the countless bodies that are probably still in the water, probably been picked over by sharks and crocs by now. We'll never get an accurate census of the number dead from this tragedy and it isn't because of some conspiracy. It is because of the lack of infrastructure and the difficulty of the affected terrain and the lack of these populations being well connected to the rest of their respective countries. No one has any reason to conceal the number dead because this is not the fault of anyone.

rg73, Excellent point! There is no reason to decieve in this case.

Skibum
Some waves? Do you understand how big this "wave" was. Have you seen the videos available of this little "wave". I would have to say you don't know what you are talking about. The hurricaines and the storm surges associated with them are nothing compared to a tsunami of this magnitude.

I was kinda joking when I said some waves.

and yes I have seen some videos of this (who hasn't).

When I say infastructure I am refering to things like a coast gaurd and good hospitals with Helos, and a proper warning system in place, even if people had a 1 hour notice of the waves it would have made the death toll to 5,000-10,000 people.

well on BBc 1 in the UK the news said 123,000 confirmed dead and that figure can only go up then 1 day later it said a not so much bigger number was uncomfirmed alltogether , this is absolutly bang out of order but hey thats nature,

ive already got money takin out my wage for these ppl has any 1 else done the same fair enough it was only a �1 but add every 1 in the uk doin that and more and the Us and so on thats a lot of non goverment money going up ppl


1 billion pounds sterling confirmed pledged its only been a weekish thats in my opinion rolling your sleves up