These Two Verses Destroys Christian Doctrine

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesus sacrifice does cover the debt of sin. But there is more to the story. The answer is found in this parable as to why forgiveness of others is considered necessary, and why God will punish those who fail to forgive others.

Mathew 18
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

I think that these passages hold a truism more designed to explain earthly hell.

If you are angry with someone you are not at peace in your own heart. It isn't until you earnestly forgive as God has forgiven you that peace returns to your heart.

The kingdom of heaven within is a kingdom of Love and peace. One cannot enter into the kingdom of Love and peace who can't forgive others, because the lack of forgiveness is a roadblock to Peace in one's own heart.

For a Christian to be like Christ, which is what someone implies when they call themselves Christians, they must forgive as they were forgiven.

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: traintrain

The easiest way to understand the term love in most 'biblical' contexts, is to think of love as a 'verb' - something you 'do'...

...For example, when you go out of your way to do an act of kindness, you are 'doing' love -

Amen

I will go one step further. I think Love should always be used as a verb. I think when it is used as a noun it represents appreciation more than Love itself.

Or when many people say I Love you what they are really saying is I appreciate you.

When you do something Loving for someone that is the only time you actually Loved them.

a reply to: chr0naut

Jesus says nothing about believing in a sacrifice to be forgiven. If I forgive others but don't believe Jesus died for me then I am still forgiven because I forgave others. Do you disagree? Then you disagree with Jesus. I have a feeling you disagree, which is why I say church doctrine contradicts Jesus.

Hey wow
That argument on intellect swayed me, well written and sound logic.
I no longer believe what ever your point was all about

Now can you stop

Your comments are always churlish and self grandoising, you are as bad as the worst Christians, become enlightened and act like it

a reply to: Raggedyman

How are my comments churlish? Talking about loving and forgiving others is not churlish.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
For someone who does not believe in the Bible or Jesus you sure do spend a lot of time quoting Scripture and giving your opinion on what Jesus 'really' meant.

a reply to: stosh64

That's because I see the value in Jesus' words. How am I to explain what Jesus meant if I can't use the bible to do it? That's the only place you'll find Jesus.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Not being a religious person, I typically avoid these threads like the plague. I quite often find them to be very condescending, and dripping with righteousness.

I've got to say, 3NL1GHT3N3D1, I am impressed with the manner with which you laid this out. It was neither condescending nor overwhelming in a sense of righteousness.

My lack of religiousness is not from not seeing value in what is taught in the bible. By and large, when taken at the essence of the words and the core meaning, I believe it is actually a very good thing. The 10 commandments, I feel, are an excellent tool for showing people how to get along with one another in close quarters, aka, society. I see the first four as being reinforcements of the belief. 5-10? Basically, don't upset someone. Don't make them upset with you.

If everyone follows this, well...guess what. We'd have peace.

When I was young, I lived in a children's home. Basically, a halfway point for troubled kids. It was affiliated with the Church of Christ. I've seen many instances of this flavor of Christianity since, and I am uncertain as to whether or not they are all the same. The home was supported largely by the donations of this particular congregation. We were constantly under scrutiny by the members of the church. Discussed. Gossiped about.

I respected the Pastor. He was a decent man. He talked to me, even though I was only 14, as though I were a person. He didn't belittle. He never once attempted to "indoctrinate" me. I asked questions, he answered. We talked.

One Sunday, his sermon was on the evils of gossip. I remember this well. The two older ladies (rather well respected members of the congregation) sitting in front of me were gossiping quietly about other members of the church throughout the entire sermon, oblivious to what was going on around them.

As life went on and I've aged and experienced more and more, I've seen more and more of those two old ladies. Always ready to preach.......always wanting to lead the unwashed.

Never leading by example. Seemingly unaware of their own human condition, as they have been forgiven by Christ.

I've met few who earned my respect as the Pastor of that church did. They are mostly all people who never mention their faith unless asked directly. They all have strong convictions. Honestly, many of which I vehemently disagree with. However, the ones I am regarding...I love as much as anyone would love family.

I wish the majority of those who are religious would lead by true example. I wish they would open their hearts as instructed, and love. Try to understand. Forgive.

And not condemn.

That, from everything I've ever read or been told, is God's job.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: stosh64

That's the only place you'll find Jesus.

By the name Jesus yes. But the archetype Jesus can be found in many religious doctrine under many names.

I think you are closer to the truth of the bible than most Christians are. Christians tend to over complicate the message that jesus was trying to convey.

The passages you quoted (plus these) pretty much sums up the entire new testament and conveys the real message that jesus was preaching.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8New International Version (NIV)

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

1 Corinthians 13:12

12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The 3 most important points that jesus made to gain salvation are these:

1) love others as you love yourself.
2) forgive others if you want to be forgiven.
3) Love is greater than faith.

He even removes the obstacle of trying to define what the words love and forgiveness mean by giving us the definition.He tells us how many times to forgive people, it`s all right there and it`s all very simple and uncomplicated.

If you live your life by those 3 things I think that you`ll get that golden ticket into heaven when you die.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: chr0naut

Matthew 6:14-15 are the verses I was talking about, the others were only to reinforce those two. They contradict Christian doctrine by saying forgiving others is what gives you forgiveness. Christian doctrine states that belief in Jesus' sacrifice is what gives you forgiveness.

You do understand that when someone wrongs you and you don't let go, hold a grudge, you are in a dark place, a hateful place and not loving? Yes?

How can you fulfill the commandment to love when you hold a grudge? It would seem to me that you cannot follow Christ and hold grudges (refuse to forgive, let things go).

Simple common sense, not any kind of contradiction at all.

Btw, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the light. All who believe in me shall not perish but have eternal life."

What do think it means to believe in Him if not to follow what He taught?

a reply to: ketsuko

Of course I understand that, that was one of the points I alluded to in the OP.

Doing what he taught is to forgive others and to love them. That's what he taught.

John 14
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

Those who keep Jesus' commands are those who love him and believe in him. In fact, Jesus' entire message is encapsulated within John 14.

If you keep Jesus' commandments you love your neighbor and God, and as we know, love does no harm to a neighbor. How can someone say they follow Jesus' commandments but also call themselves a sinner? To sin is to cause harm to a neighbor, love does no harm to a neighbor. Those who love Jesus are those who do not sin.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: chr0naut

Jesus says nothing about believing in a sacrifice to be forgiven. If I forgive others but don't believe Jesus died for me then I am still forgiven because I forgave others. Do you disagree? Then you disagree with Jesus. I have a feeling you disagree, which is why I say church doctrine contradicts Jesus.

Jesus references to sacrifice:

This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. ... John 6:50-71

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up. John3: 14

(said about Jesus by John the Baptist) Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John 1: 29

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many. Matthew 20: 28

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I agree with your overall premise, and there are actually other ways of determining from Scripture itself that belief in Jesus' death as an atonement for the sins of mankind must be done away with if one hopes to reign in the Kingdom of God.

However, I believe it is too simplistic to say that His "death was not necessary." In the context of it being necessary as a salvific act that one must believe in to "go to heaven instead of hell," then yes, it was unnecessary in that regard. However, when we understand that the Elohim of Genesis 1 must be delineated from Yahweh who is introduced in Genesis 2, we can see a necessity in Jesus' death.

How so?

Yahweh in the Old Testament declares himself to be "I am," and Jesus makes the same declaration in the Gospel of John. Hence, we can see that Christians are correct in stating that Jesus was in fact Yahweh; ie, the incarnate aspect OF Yahweh.

But, what did Yahweh do in Genesis 2? He oversaw the corruption of the original creation that was considered to be only good in Genesis 1; the creation of the Elohim. (Yahweh's name is not found in the first chapter of the Bible.) It is Yahweh who introduced the duality of good and evil by creating that tree, and it is Yahweh who introduced the very concepts of sin and death which resulted in the "fall of man," and the corrupted state of existence in which we are still confined to this day.

This then is what Christians do not understand - that Genesis 1 MUST be delineated from Genesis 2. Yes, Yahweh has been "God," but he is not the supreme God; the "Prime Creator." That would be the Elohim of Genesis 1.

Let us read the words of Jesus:

Luke 14
11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Christians of course look at this as a teaching that applies to them, given by their Lord Jesus. But is it possible that Jesus Himself had come to learn the necessity of this principle by way of the fact that He Himself was also subjected to it?

What then does Yahweh do throughout the entire Old Testament? Of course, he demands worship and exalts himself:

Exodus 20
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God."

(We must also keep in mind that he was ultimately responsible for the corruption of Genesis 1's original divinely perfect state.)

It should now be obvious that the reason Jesus had to humble Himself by going to the cross to "die for the sins of man" is because He, as Yahweh, exalted himself as the supreme God, which he was not. So, because he introduced evil, sin, and death into existence, he had to incarnate in human flesh and be put to death as a consequence for his own corruption of perfect existence.

This of course means that the Father referenced by Jesus throughout the Gospels is not Yahweh, because Jesus Himself was Yahweh incarnate. The true Father, the good Father, is the Elohimic Creator of Genesis 1. Yahweh, who introduced the dichotomy of good and evil, has in fact been the dualistic God of good and evil, as he himself declares:

Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

These are truths that have been hidden from men's eyes throughout the Church Age, and an awakening to these things is a necessity in order to manifest the true Kingdom of God on the earth. Christianity must cease "worshipping Jesus" as a religious entity and finding an atoning reason in His death for the forgiveness of their sins. As you pointed out in the opening post, He Himself has stated multiple times in the Gospels that forgiveness is contingent upon forgiving others.

a reply to: TombEscaper

I believe Jesus/Yahweh are representative of humans in general. Yahweh's acts in the OT mirrored those of man at the time, when men attacked others and killed them, Yahweh ordered it.

I agree that Jesus could be Yahweh in a sense, but not to say as a singular entity but as a representative of mankind as a whole. Yahweh represents the fallen nature of mankind, Jesus represents the higher nature of mankind.

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross represents our struggles in this corrupt world, his death for sins represents our own eventual death and resurrection through reincarnation. Our sins being forgiven is represented as Jesus' death because our own deaths will be a fresh start, hence our sins from this life being forgiven, we're given a clean slate. No one is left out of this cycle, it is eternal, everyone gains salvation through our own deaths on the "cross".

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Yes, I also see the symbolic and internal applications of all Scripture. It is possible that nothing written in the Bible ever concretely happened in a literal sense, but this does not prohibit it from being the most "true" transmission ever given to humanity, as it shows man the blueprint of his own soul. Ironically, the Bible truly comes to life when it is realized that what it actually reveals is that it does not matter whether its contents are absolute literal history.

Good and evil Yahweh is the God of humanity, through humanity. All humans carry out acts of both good and evil, as this is the existence into which we are confined. As such, Yahweh reigns as "God" through man.

Christ and the cross represent what is required to overcome this Matrix existence; that is, killing off the ego (the flesh) in order to raise to life the divine essence within.

Christianity has of course literalized and dogmatized these things, which has actually all been a part of the cosmic plan. This literalizing of the metaphysical "living parables" of the Bible has resulted in the massively divided Christian institution, made up of thousands upon thousands of disagreeing denominations. However, after 2,000 years of darkened entombment, we are now approaching a paradigm shift in which a "third day awakening" must take place within and throughout the Church; the "Body of Christ" There must be a mass-resurrection unto the Truth of what the Bible truly is, which is the guide to bringing to life the divine Christ within.

Christ speaks towards this third day awakening in the Gospel of John, chapter 14:

19 Because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

If you forgive others' sins against you, God will forgive your sins, but if you do NOT forgive others then God will not forgive you either, regardless of whether you believe in a sacrifice or not. How can Christians argue against this? Probably by citing words from someone other than Jesus.

You had started on the right foot and then you got entangled with religious doctrines.

Matthew tells you to forgive those who sin against you. Jesus did not teach that you had power to forgive sin against God or anyone else for that matter. Just against yourself. You only have power to forgive sin against yourself and even then that is not assurance the offense that you forgave will also be forgiven by God.