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Are There 'Moderate Muslims' or Is Islam a Flawed Ideology

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posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 11:31 PM

originally posted by: Sremmos80

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to:

Desert Islam (Wahhabism) spawned from Saudi Arabia is the root cause of the issue.

This, needs to be quoted for truth.
Stop looking at the ME as the end all be all and assume all people act like that.

True but Saudi Arabia has bankrolled the spread of Wahhabism all over the world. Their version of Islam is what is taught at the Mosques and Madrases they build around the globe.

posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 11:37 PM
Define "moderate Muslim."

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 12:06 AM
a reply to: notmyrealname

That particular "turk" did not as per his own beliefs. I don't have a narrow view of anyone but can only describe my own personal dealings with them and I found them to be ordinary individuals. "Raki" was their drink of choice, just don't tell them it taste like Ouzo....that was the only group I ever heard them dislike...the Greeks and then it was always good natured.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 01:28 AM

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: Metallicus
I have been trying to envision a scenario where 'moderate Muslims' will live peacefully with people of other faiths or even in a secular society and to be honest I can't see it happening. The term 'moderate Muslim' itself may be flawed.

Many like to say that the problem with Islam is 'Islamic Extremists', but is it really? Many like to say things would be okay if 'moderate Muslims' would speak up. I am wondering if that is true.

What if Islam is simply a fundamentally flawed ideology? I know some say it is a religion, but it is the political movement associated with Islam that is incompatible with the West and other secular nations.

What if instead of 'moderate Muslims' we said 'moderate Nazis'? Could we say that it is only 'Nazi Extremists' that are the problem? If only the 'moderate Nazis' would speak up everything would be okay, right?

I would submit that instead Islam, like Nazism, are fatally flawed ideologies that simply don't allow for others to live in harmony with them. It simply isn't possible for these ideologies to work without destroying anyone that doesn't comply with their beliefs and agendas.

What do you think ATS?

Ahhh, the irony of a Christian talking about extremism. I hear this constant talk from Christians about hating the sin and not the sinner, but there are so many Christian bullies. Get your house in order. I'm down with some of the core Christian beliefs, but man you got a problem with keeping your team in check. I'm a Taoist, which should align well with most Christian beliefs, but in this town if you aren't attending church you might as well be the devil. Imaginary people in the clouds dictating how to live. You're a good man by all accounts of what you say here, but dogma is dogma. Where do we draw the line with faith-based beliefs? What is okay and what isn't? It's a great deal easier to decide when beliefs aren't tied in. I'm good if it doesn't infringe on my rights. Trouble is just about every religion has some belief that wants to infringe on my rights.

In this day and age if you're a Christian or a Muslim, should you step on my property and knock on my door, I have a 9mm waiting on the other side and a polite request for you to leave my property. All private roads here and unless you're a resident you have no business here. Moderate my ass. It is what it is. Dangerous days.

I am not sure who you meant to respond to, but I am definitely not a Christian nor have I ever claimed to be. If I were going to pick a mainstream religion I would say Buddhism would be the closest thing to something I could sort of get behind. That being said I don't feel the need for a religion in my life. God and I don't need a middle-man.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 01:53 AM

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

Charlie, you know I love you man.

Did I not predict this turning of the tides months back?

The West is turning on Islam, as I said it would if the Muslim community did not act to stifle its rogue element.

The West has the ability to wipe out Islam just like it did imperial Japanese culture and Nazism.....

I was called an islamiphobe because I voiced my concerns.

Now you are watching those warnings grow into ripe fruit......

In the next US election, we will elect a hawk, the more vocal about combating the spread of extremist Islam, the more likely they are to win.....

Stay safe brother, and if it comes to it, just keep your head down.

Now you see what I was warning about.

It is all but mainstream now...... Soon it will be common sense.....

I hate being able to see these things coming from far afield..... It will only get worse as more Muslim's stream into Europe, and bring their incompatible culture with them.

They will be running back to the middle east in less than 5 years to escape the inquisition that is coming.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 02:54 AM

I would submit that Islam, like Nazism, are fatally flawed ideologies...

Without exception, all religions are flawed ideologies. They arose out of an idea, and over time became a cultural identity and underwent re-interpretations to support agendas, causing splits and schisms in their own ideology.

It is the very core of the multicultural debate. Those that wanted to introduce multiculturalism knew that they could not do so without a rebuttal to objections to different cultures being introduced alongside the host culture. Thus multiculturalism has used the 'race' card as the rebuttal to objections. The rebuttal, once seen for what it is, becomes untenable. Racism isn't the issue, the forced introduction of a different culture into one established over centuries and thousands of years is. If they are incompatible, forcing them won't make them compatible, it just creates cultural ghettoes where genuine integration does not take place.

Don't get me wrong. Multicultralism is where the human race is heading, it is the right course of our progression, only it has been introduced at the wrong time to futher the wrong agenda. The host culture has been slapped around in order to accommodate the incoming culture, and those of the host culture haven't liked it, but because the race card is shown at every objection, they have been shouted down, but with the race issue now being understood for what it is...a lie, the real objections to mindset and culture can now be heard with justification.

You cannot reject a person based on arguments of race, but you can rightfully reject their ideas if you believe and can demonstrate that they are incompatible. No one can force you to accept an idea, because if they try, then the argument is heading towards the argument of last resort. Hitler himself had his own ideology defeated at the last resort.
edit on 25/9/15 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 03:04 AM
Seeing I live in a area which is full of moderate Muslims and we all get along fine I think your OP is flawed.

Oh and just to point out all Religion is flawed because it is false but that doesn't stop us living in peace with each other.
edit on 25-9-2015 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 04:12 AM

...all Religion is flawed, because it is false, but that doesn't stop us living in peace with each other.

Obviously, you are confused by your own words. You're not living in 'peace' with one another, you're living in 'presence' and 'toleration' only, that is not peace, that is a mimicry of peace.

Furthermore, 'all religion is flawed is because it is false' is not a principle of argument that automatically follows. I agree with your conclusion, but it is necessary to explain why it is false. How about it is false because it is an idea with unsupportable claims?

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 04:14 AM
a reply to: boymonkey74

Good point mate. Hangon though. If push came to shove nationaly, would you move on or support the moderates in your locale. I ask this because often I find moderates are fence sitters and generally take the winning side in the long run.

Question in good faith and attitude.

Kind regards Bally.

edit on 25-9-2015 by bally001 because: Spellin mistook

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 04:25 AM
a reply to: elysiumfire

We are living in peace Religion isn't the most important thing in the Muslim folks lives I know yeah sure they follow it but family and friends matter more to them.
Sure there are fundies just like in every religion but to say they can't integrate and live with others is just a plain ignorant lie.
edit on 25-9-2015 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 04:27 AM
a reply to: bally001

What do you mean If push came to shove? like a war v muslims?.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 04:44 AM

We are living in peace Religion isn't the most important thing in the Muslim folks lives I know yeah sure they follow it but family and friends matter more to them. Sure there are fundies just like in every religion but to say they can't integrate and live with others is just a plain ignorant lie.

No. You are not living in peace, and until you can see and accept that, you will remain confused with your flawed responses. Religion, in this particular case...Islam, is the most important aspect of the Muslim, because Islam is not only their religion, it is their culture. The noun 'Muslim' pertains to a person practising Islam. Muslim isn't a race, it is a cultural identity based on the practice of Islam.

In the case of Islam, it is an ideology that is wholly incompatible with Western values. The Muslim can only live in 'presence' not peace, because the Muslim knows that the ideology he practices as a religion and way of life is incompatible with Western ideological values. The only difference of opinion between the alleged moderate Muslim and that of the fundamentalist Muslim, is the degree of demonstration of their belief.

Let me ask you a question, and you will need to think very carefully about your answer. You do not need to answer it, but if you do, I'll respect you all the more.

Whose cultural ideology would you defend if push came to the shove?
edit on 25/9/15 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 04:56 AM
a reply to: elysiumfire

Well not the people who I know and live around and work with.
The are people first and Muslim second, you really think they are so tied to their religion? just like Christians who identify themselves as Christians and don't go to church.
Cultural identity? my own British but they also would defend their cultural identity which is British also.
Let me ask you something you ever met any Muslims? sure doesn't appear so but keep on being afraid dude.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 05:06 AM
quite an interesting video on the topic by atheist Sam Harris. Talks about how moderates of all faiths make excuses for fundamentalism by creating the taboo that religions should be respected.

edit on 25-9-2015 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 05:09 AM

originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: muse7
There's millions of Muslims living in the US and we haven't had a terrorist attack since 9/11. Most of the terrorist attacks we've had since then have been by rabid right wing Christians bombing clinics and shooting up Jewish and Hindu temples.

Now now,

Christian phobia will not be tolerated here.

True Christian(s) would not bomb clinics and/or shoot up Jewish and Hindu Temples.
There may be those who do things under the 'guise' of being Christian/Jew/Muslim, but that doesn't mean that they are true to their religion.. in fact it would seem to me that the opposite holds true.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 05:47 AM
I don't believe that any true Muslim is moderate. If a person believes in the word of a God, especially a God whose words include converting or killing non-Muslims...that is by definition...radical. I do believe (obviously) that there are Muslims that don't practice Islam as per those exact words and others who believe the words but hide their belief. If the Muslim world gets their wish and wins their war by peaceably invading other countries in masse, becoming a larger percentage of the population, integrating into politics and government until they can install Islamic law...then I believe those non-radicals will do one of two things. Become instantly radicalized or be killed.

Yes...I am convinced there is a Muslim agenda that has been bred overseas whose goal is to take over the world. Not today...not in a decade and not in a generation. But their ultimate goal is an Islamic world. These are patient people with no other purpose in life than to obey their religion.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 05:54 AM
a reply to: Ksihkehe

I'm down with some of the core Christian beliefs, but man you got a problem with keeping your team in check.

There's the problem. How does one go about keeping their 'team in check' without forcing ideals and opinions or beliefs, on others? It's very personal and as such-unique to the individual.

One is not responsible for the opinions of others and should not be held responsible. You can't generalize Religious ideals.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 07:38 AM

originally posted by: muse7
a reply to: Metallicus

Dude I know plenty of Muslims, there's plenty at my university and you couldn't differentiate them from the rest of the students. Turn off Fox News and stop reading the blaze so damn much and maybe then you could realize that most Muslims are peaceful people.

Yes, we know. Many radicals went to university and behaved in a way that made them likeable. Osama Bin Laden is one example. Just because they pretend to be westernised doesn't mean they won't blow you up at a later date. It's all in the koran, don't be fooled by behaviour.
I also worked with muslims, made friends with a couple. The others were married off to men that turned out to be abusive, hated the western ways and told me that we would be better off with their rules. They were all likeable and I had lunch with them and good discussions.

Were they proud to be British and loved tea, bisquits and Miss Marple? Nope, they didn't even know who Miss Marple was because watching or knowing British culture was a no-no!

As to the OP, I'd like to add that I personally would love to live with people of different religions, languages, colours, cultures etc - may be hard to believe but I totally love it, always have. However it seems to be that 'proper' muslims have always caused a stir throughout time.
Quotes [again, because I believe listening to historic people is better than modern people as they have been there]:

Quran… an accursed book…. So long as there is this book there will be no peace in the world.

– William Ewart Gladstone
Prime Minister of the United Kingdom four times between 1868 and 1894 (1809–1898).

If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whomever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thorough silenced and concealed.

– Zakariya Razi (Rhazes)
Persian chemist, philosopher and physician, 865 – 925AD.

The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.

– Will Durant
American writer, historian, and philosopher (November 5, 1885 – November 7, 1981).

These future United States presidents questioned the ambassador as to why his (Islamic) government was so hostile to the new American republic even though America had done nothing to provoke any such animosity. Ambassador Adja answered them, as they reported to the Continental Congress, ‘that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise’.

– Thomas Jefferson
U.S. president addressing the Continental Congress about the brutal pirate attacks of the Muslim Ottoman Barbary (1801–1805 and 1815).

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, lovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

– Sir Winston Churchill, 1899.
British Conservative politician and statesman of the United Kingdom during the Second World War.

… The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom.

–St. Thomas Aquinas (Contra Gentiles, Book One, Chapter 6, Paragraph 4)
Italian Dominican friar and Catholic priest and an immensely influential philosopher and theologian in the tradition of scholasticism (1225 – 7 March 1274).

There are many more but the message should be clear. Can we afford to ignore the wisdom of the past and our gut feelings and our eyes? No amount of excuses will change my mind, only many years [at least a hundred] of experiencing spiritual, peaceful muslims might, maybe, if they mean it.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 07:47 AM
All I know is that when Muslims tried to murder people in Texas over a drawing, the so called "moderates" came out in mass to protest......drawing cartoons of Mohammad. If that's moderate, then we're in trouble.

posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 07:47 AM
a reply to: Metallicus

I think that you are talking nonsense.

I have neighbours and fellow traders on my road, who are Muslim, and present as much threat to my way of life as does a plate full of battered cod and chips. I think that only those who are not just ignorant, but deliberately and wilfully so, fail to recognise that there are reasonable Muslims who just want to be free to worship in peace, and without having to defend themselves against either radical members of their own faith, or xenophobic madness from outside it.

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