It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Are you of European, British, or an American? .. then likely you are both Semitic and a "Hebrew"

page: 3
8
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 11:51 AM
link   

originally posted by: redhorse
a reply to: Spider879

Maybe I misunderstood? I didn't think that he was trying to say that anyone of European or British Isles descent was descended from one group. I'll have to go over it again. I do think that there was quite a bit of West Asian influence but I always assumed that was very old, from about 5000 BC. I just thought that he was talking about a more recent influx.


There is quite a bit of West Asian influence in North Western Europe these were the European and Anatolian first farmers, but at that time they weren't any Hebrews,thus I want folks to separate Language from genetics and genetics from culture including religion.
The title said Are you of European, British, or an American? .. then likely you are both Semitic and a "Hebrew"
It seemed that he is calling Europeans and their American and British relatives Hebrews a religious/cultural term and Semitic a language group, that's what I got from it.




posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 12:39 PM
link   
a reply to: Spider879

I can see why the title would frame it that way. I just took it as a dig targeting anti-Semitics which he followed up with an attempt at mapping out migrations with language. This linguistic angle is a common tool that anthropologists and even geneticists use to help line up human migration patterns but it's certainly not perfect and shouldn't be a stand alone. When you mix religion into it then it becomes a hot-button issue, which further confuses the conversation. I still think it's interesting and I'm not completely convinced that there is an agenda trying to prove that all Europeans and people of European descent are really "Hebrews", but maybe I am being too charitable. You could be right.


edit on 24-9-2015 by redhorse because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 02:49 PM
link   
a reply to: toms54


originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: nOraKat
I can't sat that I completely agree with this idea. For one thing, the Bible does
not describe all the peoples of Mesopotamia as Semitic, and they were there.

I have read competing theories on this subject. Further, genetic testing
may be the more reliable guide rather than history. This has been studied
but I read the results some time ago and don't have references. What I
remember is that there is a surprising mixture of genetic profiles
even among people whose families were in Britain for centuries.




During the 3rd millennium BC, there developed a very intimate cultural symbiosis between the Sumerians and the Semitic Akkadians, which included widespread bilingualism. Akkadian gradually replaced Sumerian as a spoken language somewhere between the 3rd and the 2nd millennia BC (the exact dating being a matter of debate).
- en.wikipedia.org...

I never said Western peoples were descended *purely* from a Semitic speaking peoples. I said it is likely that Semitic is mixed in with most Western/Middle Eastern peoples.



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 02:56 PM
link   
a reply to: 8675309jenny

Who ever said anything about pure genetic lineages. I said it is likely that 'Western' civilization is mixed with Semitic peoples due to the lineage of: Phoenicians/Minoans (semitic), to the Etruscan, to the Roman, to the Europeans/Brits.




Phoenician cities and trade routes.



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 03:07 PM
link   
I think the big confusion everyone is having is that when they think 'Semitic' and 'Hebrew', they imagine the people who call themselves 'Jews' today.

But 'Semitic' refers to language. A language of a particular people, namely the Akkadians whose empire spanned the whole of the Fertile Crescent, the Levant, Egypt, the Mediterranean, and parts of Anatolia/Turkey as far back as 2400 BC or earlier. The Phoenician/Canaanites, who were a part of the Akkadian Empire, over time moved west into Europe and the British Isles. I am not saying there were no people there yet at that time. I am saying it is likely that they mixed with the people, if there were any there, and certainly etablished their own permanent settlements.
edit on 24-9-2015 by nOraKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 03:21 PM
link   
a reply to: DJW001

If I were to decide what was the proper usage of a term, I would go with its original meaning which is in regards to the language of a peoples. But you are right, in that that is the way it is used now. I believe I pointed that out.


"Today, the word "Semite" may be used to refer to any member of any of a number of peoples of ancient Middle East including the Akkadians, .. Phoenicians, .. and their descendants." - en.wikipedia.org...

----
Semitic:
"1. a subfamily of Afroasiatic languages that includes Akkadian,.."
"2. of or relating to the Semites or their languages.."
- dictionary.reference.com...



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 03:33 PM
link   
a reply to: Glassbender777

Well, that's great! The results of your genetic testing coincides with this story exactly (though I am not sure how they figured that out..).

There are also competing histories tracing back the origin of humans to the SE Asia/Indonesia region as well as Africa. I'm sure a lot happened since then.

I think religion, and who identify themselves as Semitic today confuse the issue.
edit on 24-9-2015 by nOraKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 03:57 PM
link   
a reply to: Spider879


originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: redhorse
a reply to: Spider879

Maybe I misunderstood? I didn't think that he was trying to say that anyone of European or British Isles descent was descended from one group. I'll have to go over it again. I do think that there was quite a bit of West Asian influence but I always assumed that was very old, from about 5000 BC. I just thought that he was talking about a more recent influx.


There is quite a bit of West Asian influence in North Western Europe these were the European and Anatolian first farmers, but at that time they weren't any Hebrews,thus I want folks to separate Language from genetics and genetics from culture including religion.
The title said Are you of European, British, or an American? .. then likely you are both Semitic and a "Hebrew"
It seemed that he is calling Europeans and their American and British relatives Hebrews a religious/cultural term and Semitic a language group, that's what I got from it.


To clarify again, when I say 'Semitic', I am talking about the Akkadians and their empire that spanned the entire region of the Fertile Crescent, the Levant, Egypt as far back as 2400BC. Simultaneously, you can speak about the Phoenicians that can be traced back to the Levant and Red Sea/NE. Africa region as far back as 3000 BC.


"According to the Persians best informed in history, the Phoenicians began the quarrel. These people, who had formerly dwelt on the shores of the Erythraean Sea, having migrated to the Mediterranean and settled in the parts which they now inhabit, began at once, they say, to adventure on long voyages, freighting their vessels with the wares of Egypt and Assyria ... "

- Herodotus' account (written c. 440 BC)

It is a fairly vast region and through many images and reliefs, there is evidence of mixed race.

I refer to the entire region and its peoples as 'Semitic' which is the proper use of the term. I do not refer to any religion or specific tribe.

---

Images of those people (at least their leaders) who moved westwards into Carthage, Venice/Europe, etc. look 'white' for the most part; whatever that means..
edit on 24-9-2015 by nOraKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 04:44 PM
link   
If you look at this ancient coin, with the warriors and their helmets on their ship, one can imagine that it is Etruscan or Roman.. but no it is not, it is Phoenician, and possibly dating back as far as 1200 BC.




more info



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 05:58 PM
link   
a reply to: nOraKat

I know you didn't ask but I ran our DNA (my 1/2 sister and I) through gedmatch's Eurogenes Hunter/Gatherer vs. Farmer calculator. This is supposed to compare you to ancient populations. This is (probably) before your time period so I don't know if this bolsters your theory or not. My sister's bio-dad is half Norwegian. She comes up Scandinavian and German, along with the eastern European that we share in tests that look at more recent DNA. We share or mother's L2a1 mitochondrial haplogroup (African). My father is unknown and so is his lineage.

Anatolian Farmer-- Me=14.31%, Sis=13.51% (Which is pretty similar).
Baltic Hunter Gatherer--Me=43.53%, Sis=57.22%
Middle Eastern Herder--Me=5.23%, Sis=0
East Asian Farmer--Me=2.19%, Sis=0
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer--Me-5.31%, Sis=0
Mediterranean Farmer--Me-27.33%, Sis=28.77% (Mediterranean is West and East, which still falls in your region).
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer--Me-2.10%, Sis= .43% (Hey, she finally turned up with some pygmy).

Anatolian Farmer, Middle Eastern Herder, and Mediterranean Farmer (East) would fall into the region you have outlined I think. It's interesting how similar all of that is even though we are only half siblings. This all just goes off of our autosomal DNA so it is really hard to tell when these admixtures occurred. Also, even with the ancient populations it seems to be (more or less) representative of our more modern admixture because well, you get what you get I guess. Our "J test" results testing for Jewish ancestry puts us both around 5%. Overall, these results might still add some credibility to your theory.

I lost my S/E Asian DNA on this one though, which is weird and it seems to be lumping most of our European as either Baltic or Mediterranean. I wish it were more precise and Oracle doesn't work on this one so I can't see the comparative populations here or how well we "fit" in those, which would tell me more. I wonder how typical Europeans or other Americans from European descent stack up...? It would be interesting to see and compare I think.



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 07:10 PM
link   

originally posted by: nOraKat
If you look at this ancient coin, with the warriors and their helmets on their ship, one can imagine that it is Etruscan or Roman.. but no it is not, it is Phoenician, and possibly dating back as far as 1200 BC.




more info


Roman's often one didn't cover the nose, these could easily be minoan, mycenean, spartan, corinthian or athenian too. Etruscan's ones rarely had that shapes.

Also your post is fascinating, but there is a big disconnect between phoenicians and venetians which you mention. Apart from a similarity in their name in english (which isn't as evident in latin) Venetia comes from the Veneti or Eneti people who were in that region from a long time. Phoenicians surely had contacts there, but doubtly a vast settlement since the city didn't even start to be Venice until 4th century ad.



posted on Sep, 24 2015 @ 07:49 PM
link   

originally posted by: nOraKat
If you look at this ancient coin, with the warriors and their helmets on their ship, one can imagine that it is Etruscan or Roman.. but no it is not, it is Phoenician, and possibly dating back as far as 1200 BC.




more info

Ok saw your link and thanks for the clarification btw, but I do think you and others roll everything into one cotton ball, while the Assyrians did took Kemet or Egypt in 650 B.C the Akkadians never did centuries earlier, the only connection is they were both Semitic speakers, and ships of that type were widespread in the Med and although of Phoenician origins the design spread among non Semitic peoples like the Greek, Etruscans etc, the coinage may well represent Phoenicians, however the date of 1200 B.C may well be the sea people fleeing the destruction of Troy , matter of fact this unstable era and migration began in 1600 B.C thereabouts with the Thera volcanic eruption, resulting in mass migrations and conflicts.



posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 03:41 AM
link   
a reply to: nOraKat
I think I understood your post but I don't agree with your reference.
There seems to have been a Jewish presence in Great Britain but I don't
believe the Angles and Saxons were Hebrews or Israelites. There has
been a large, popular body of writings over the past couple of centuries
about how the people and culture of Great Britain are descended from
Israel. Certainly, there is cultural influence but there were many
genetic influences. I think England is largely Germanic.

I have read studies about a small percentage of Britains even having
black genes due to some invasion from remote forgotten history.
My point is that northern Europe and Britain have been overrun for
thousands of years due to countless wars not to mention indigenous
people like the Picts and such.


edit on 25-9-2015 by toms54 because: formatted for readability



posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 04:05 AM
link   
a reply to: toms54
I'd like to expand my reply to add that I don't believe
all the peoples of Mesopotamia were Semitic. I'm
not a white supremacist or even a believer in the
Aryan race but I do believe there were people in
Northern Europe before the Hebrews and that
Mesopotamia may have been peopled from there.
Especially the northern part.



posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 04:48 AM
link   
a reply to: redhorse

Thanks for the reply.

Anatolian Farmer-- Me=14.31%, Sis=13.51%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer--Me=43.53%, Sis=57.22%
Mediterranean Farmer--Me-27.33%, Sis=28.77%

Looking at your most significant percentages - it is consistent with the trade routes and territory of the ancient Phoenicians (Anatolia, N. Europe, and Mediterranean).

I am just wondering, where do they get the samples for the ancient populations/civilizations ? and how ancient are they? Does it have anything to do with current populations?

edit on 25-9-2015 by nOraKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 05:45 AM
link   
a reply to: Mastronaut

My inspiration for this post and my original post is from the book Critical Path by Buckminster Fuller. Did you read the original post? - here

They are originally B. Fuller's ideas and my own personal investigation into these ideas gave support and eventually convinced me that they in fact are true.

Please read through it first, and if there are still any shortfalls, I will try to corroborate my findings.

I will just repeat some of the ideas presented..


I think the strongest evidence has to do with the development of language. If anything proves a cultural lineage it is language, since people must live together for it to be transferred/transmitted and passed along.



"The Phoenician alphabetic script of 22 letters was used at Byblos as early as 1500 B.C. This method of writing, later adopted by the Greeks, is the ancestor of the modern Roman alphabet."

"All the European alphabets are descendants of the Phoenician.. The Phoenician alphabet is a forerunner of the Etruscan, Latin.." - phoenicia.org...

----

Venice is recognized to be a Phoenician city (by general academia) as Bucky has stated. It appears on this list of Phoenician cities on Wikipedia - List of Phoenician cities

----

I do not claim to be an expert in archaeology or an archaeologist at all, but I suspect their determinations are many fold. The examples I've made, one that stands out for me are their ship designs which can be traced back to SE Asia, with their large hulls, characteristic shape, and ornaments like the horse or dragon head.

In regard to the helmet designs - I don't think you can be too critical of the intricacies.. the flap on the top that looks like one of the 'Ultraman' are characteristically Phoenician - originally Phoenician, and by a large span of time, hundreds, or perhaps close to, or exceeding a thousand years. Very similar helmets were later found to worn by the Etruscans, then the Romans (who are their descendants).

I wish I knew more, but I will be honest and say I am no expert on the subject. I just thought it may be important and bring it to the attention of everyone.


One thing I know - R. Buckminster Fuller is no fool, and comes from an affluent background with friends/family in 'high places' so to speak. He "received forty-seven honorary degrees, held twenty-eight patents, was awarded the Medal of Freedom, and was the author of twenty nine books." I trust what he has to say to a given extent. I also linked his entire book that inspired these articles in the first article if you wanted to take a look.

Best R.


edit on 25-9-2015 by nOraKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 06:11 AM
link   
a reply to: Spider879, a reply to: toms54 and others

My image is not one of any pure race migrating to empty lands, or any pure race at all. I am not some Hebrew guy (not even close to it) trying to extol anything.

Semitic refers to a specific territory of the Akkadian Empire which supposedly covered the entire Fertile Crescent, the Levant, Egypt, parts of Anatolia/Turkey and possibly the Mediterranean. The Sumerians also inhabited the Fertile Crescent and were not considered Semitic but eventually assimilated and Semitic-Akkadian became the dominant language.


During the 3rd millennium BC, there developed a very intimate cultural symbiosis between the Sumerians and the Semitic Akkadians, which included widespread bilingualism. Akkadian gradually replaced Sumerian as a spoken language somewhere between the 3rd and the 2nd millennia BC..
- en.wikipedia.org...

So whether you were black and came from Africa, or you are a mix of more indigenous people who lived in any of those lands before the Akkadians came, once you live in Akkadian territory and speak Akkadian (Semitic) than you are Semitic. (Just like American born Chinese are American.) If you are descended from any of those people, you are Semitic. I believe I am using the term correctly.

No lineage is pure, just look around at what you see happening today.. a mixing of genetics. But there still is a cultural lineage that you can observe and follow which includes language, culture/lifestyle/behavior, religion, government/law and their characteristic behavior/practices, art, sciences, etc. And we can even say there may be groups who, even though mixed in genetics, attempt to keep mating/marriage within their own peoples, so to speak. The picture is a complex one.
edit on 25-9-2015 by nOraKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 07:15 AM
link   
a reply to: toms54

just to add, being of 'Semitic' descent doesn't have to do with being 'Jewish' or anything with religion. It has to do with where they came from and the language they spoke.



posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 07:26 AM
link   

originally posted by: Spider879
.. and although of Phoenician origins the design spread among non Semitic peoples like the Greek, Etruscans etc, the coinage may well represent Phoenicians, ..


But my first related post, as well as parts of Buckminster Fuller's book, seeks to illustrate that the Minoans/Cretans and Etruscans are the direct descendants of the 'Semitic' Phoenicians, so cannot be referred to as non-Semitic peoples.



posted on Sep, 25 2015 @ 08:52 AM
link   

originally posted by: nOraKat

originally posted by: Spider879
.. and although of Phoenician origins the design spread among non Semitic peoples like the Greek, Etruscans etc, the coinage may well represent Phoenicians, ..


But my first related post, as well as parts of Buckminster Fuller's book, seeks to illustrate that the Minoans/Cretans and Etruscans are the direct descendants of the 'Semitic' Phoenicians, so cannot be referred to as non-Semitic peoples.

But what I am trying to get you to understand is that while one can speak of Semitic influences , the people themselves were not Semitic speakers, remember "Semitic " is a language, hence my New Guinean/Englishman example, and I am not saying that folks of the North Med have no connection with those of the Eastern Med even biologically but when we try to expand or overemphasize the connection with North Western Europe that's where thing break down, yes I know Phoenicians pick up tin in Cornwall and so must have left influences there too even biological influences, as an ex sailor I know all too well the habits of sailors but still that does not make the overall population Semitic in language or culture.



new topics

top topics



 
8
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join